Author Topic: Is Stefan Molyneux’s Freedomain Radio responsible for a suicide?  (Read 19178 times)

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imercury

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Re: Is Stefan Molyneux’s Freedomain Radio responsible for a suicide?
« Reply #30 on: September 30, 2012, 02:41:18 AM »
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From the bottom of my heart, I hope you find the care that works for you. There are, indeed, alternative treatments to drugs insofar as I am aware.

Not according to the Veterans Administration and most mental health professionals I've seen. Drugs have been the most often recommended treatment I decline to take.

imercury

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Re: Is Stefan Molyneux’s Freedomain Radio responsible for a suicide?
« Reply #31 on: September 30, 2012, 05:57:21 PM »
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Personally, I think, based on what I read from Jonathan Haidt, social support is very helpful in making people happy, and (I don't remember where, but) have often heard that exercise supposedly helps with mental health -- perhaps both could be protective against things like depression, suicide, and even things like heart disease. The speaker did mention that exercise + antidepressants have been shown to offer the patient even better relief. The bad news is he also mentioned at the end of the lecture that depression has a high chance of recurring even after treatment - that is to say, e.g. if you take antidepressants for a year and then stop. This doesn't mean you should avoid antidepressants, but I guess there's a chance you may occasionally have to get treated again.


I would agree when I'm able to talk to people about what's on my mind I feel better. I would disagree about taking anti depressants and exercise as a treatment because of this study I read the other day.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2202434/Taking-Prozac-Don-t-drive-Pills-raise-risk-having-accident-70.html

Whether or not it is the case, hopefully we'll see new drugs for depression that will have even fewer side effects and more reliable results. I myself am not totally convinced about the serotonin hypothesis. If it makes anyone feel better, the SSRIs used today have even fewer side effects than the antidepressants that were originally used. I feel hopeful that there are people out there who really do want to see less suffering in the world.


I got from the lecture the older antidepressants of the 60's were more effective and the trend has been to seek lower side effects but at a loss of effectiveness the older drugs had.


And here is the full lecture:

The Biology of Depression: The Affects of Stress


« Last Edit: September 30, 2012, 05:59:54 PM by imercury »

Elvis_left_the_building

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Re: Is Stefan Molyneux’s Freedomain Radio responsible for a suicide?
« Reply #32 on: November 14, 2014, 07:53:19 PM »
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Did this guy by any chance take part in FDR podcast 905 - our inner bastard?

P Jaques

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Re: Is Stefan Molyneux’s Freedomain Radio responsible for a suicide?
« Reply #33 on: November 14, 2014, 08:44:08 PM »
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I would disagree about taking anti depressants and exercise as a treatment because of this study I read the other day.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2202434/Taking-Prozac-Don-t-drive-Pills-raise-risk-having-accident-70.html




The Daily Mail !? Seriously, people are reading the Daily Mail for health advice, really ? The Daily Mail is a laughing stock in the actual medical world, this is a paper that promoted (to disastrous effect) the idea that there was a link between the MMR jab and autism just a few years ago. The Daily Mail's health section is an absolute joke, idiotically sensationalist paper selling headlines, the joke here in the UK is that according to the Daily Mail everything gives you cancer, chocolate, vegetables, exercise, beer, sunshine . . . so runs the headline . . . 4 months later these are the things that _prevent_ cancer: chocolate, vegetables, exercise, beer, sunshine . . . 14 months later . . . these things give you cancer  . . . chocolate, vegetables, exercise, beer, sunshine . . .rinse and repeat and sell lots of papers to the scientifically illiterate . . . .


Honestly I hate to be so frank, but saying that you've ruled something out 'because of this study I read the other day' (you've not read a study, you've read a newspaper article, from a newspaper notorious for this kind of idiotic click-bait) and that 'study' is in the Daily Mail means you shouldn't really be making these kinds of judgments.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2014, 08:50:52 PM by P Jaques »
No, no, no, no, stop, stop, stop . . . you're wrong and I'm right . . . can we have the next caller please Mike.

DePoo

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Re: Is Stefan Molyneux’s Freedomain Radio responsible for a suicide?
« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2014, 02:17:14 AM »
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If I were to take him up on this recommendation. Then the psychiatrist prescribes a anti depressant that allows me to act on my suicidal ideation who's fault is it that I commit suicide ?

A friend of mine who was on psyche meds told me the reason she thought they increased suicide was that they turn off your innate "horror" reaction to the idea of killing yourself.

She said it's kind of a byproduct of these drugs' actions, more than a "side effect." They "turn down the volume" on being freaked out by things, which is why doctors prescribe them. But that also includes turning off being freaked out by things that should freak you out. Things people should naturally be afraid of, as part of our natural survival mechanisms.

She said that without psyche meds, most people, even ones with suicidal thoughts, won't usually go through with it. Because if they did, they'd be horrified at the thought of "The blade has pierced my arm" or "I'm putting a loaded gun near my head" and abort the "mission." 

But on the meds, that impulse is dulled and they can go through with it.


I don't know if there's any wisdom or truth in this, I'll just put it out there to see if anyone with experience with psyche meds (I have none) thinks it rings true.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2014, 02:28:08 AM by DePoo »

DePoo

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Re: Is Stefan Molyneux’s Freedomain Radio responsible for a suicide?
« Reply #35 on: November 15, 2014, 02:35:05 AM »
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I would disagree about taking anti depressants and exercise as a treatment because of this study I read the other day.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2202434/Taking-Prozac-Don-t-drive-Pills-raise-risk-having-accident-70.html

The Daily Mail !? Seriously, people are reading the Daily Mail for health advice, really ? The Daily Mail is a laughing stock in the actual medical world, this is a paper that promoted (to disastrous effect) the idea that there was a link between the MMR jab and autism just a few years ago. The Daily Mail's health section is an absolute joke, idiotically sensationalist paper selling headlines, the joke here in the UK is that according to the Daily Mail everything gives you cancer, chocolate, vegetables, exercise, beer, sunshine . . . so runs the headline . . . 4 months later these are the things that _prevent_ cancer: chocolate, vegetables, exercise, beer, sunshine . . . 14 months later . . . these things give you cancer  . . . chocolate, vegetables, exercise, beer, sunshine . . .rinse and repeat and sell lots of papers to the scientifically illiterate . . . .


Honestly I hate to be so frank, but saying that you've ruled something out 'because of this study I read the other day' (you've not read a study, you've read a newspaper article, from a newspaper notorious for this kind of idiotic click-bait) and that 'study' is in the Daily Mail means you shouldn't really be making these kinds of judgments.


Yup. The Daily Mail the UK's answer to The Weekly World News.



« Last Edit: November 15, 2014, 02:36:49 AM by DePoo »

Prodigal son

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Re: Is Stefan Molyneux’s Freedomain Radio responsible for a suicide?
« Reply #36 on: November 15, 2014, 03:50:49 AM »
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The Daily Mail !? Seriously, people are reading the Daily Mail for health advice, really ? The Daily Mail is a laughing stock in the actual medical world, this is a paper that promoted (to disastrous effect) the idea that there was a link between the MMR jab and autism just a few years ago.

The "actual medical world" is one of the biggest worldwide industries, if not the biggest, and the biggest employer in the UK. I checked quickly and it seems that the BBC, which is never wrong (just joking), has confirmed that the UK healthcare industry is the fifth largest world employer, just behind McDonalds. And that's just the UK.

Irrespective of the reliability of the source (and I think that it is generally considered to be a logical fallacy to consider a claim to be necessarily wrong because the source has been found to be unreliable or sensationalist), is it really surprising that anyone who says anything outside the confines of the "medical world" is considered, if the view becomes popular, to be a laughing stock?

Meanwhile we're all getting sicker, with cancer and circulatory diseases following a very steep upward curve over the period in which the HCI has spread its power and influence. Suddenly, you see, we all need to spend money in their shop.

I know that this doesn't automatically mean that the money is not well spent, but surely it recommends some healthy sketpcisim?

P Jaques

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Re: Is Stefan Molyneux’s Freedomain Radio responsible for a suicide?
« Reply #37 on: November 15, 2014, 06:51:08 AM »
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The "actual medical world" is one of the biggest worldwide industries, if not the biggest, and the biggest employer in the UK. I checked quickly and it seems that the BBC, which is never wrong (just joking), has confirmed that the UK healthcare industry is the fifth largest world employer, just behind McDonalds. And that's just the UK.

I'm not sure what the point is you are making here, if there is one ?

When I used the phrase the 'actual medical world', I was differentiating between people who have studied, trained and work in the medical profession with people who have studied, trained and worked in journalism and media.

The medical world is one of the biggest worldwide industries . . great !! : ) I'm sure we would all complain bitterly if that wasn't the case, I'd hate to see it down at number 68, with the top slots filled by Disney and McDonald's, I'm sure we'd all sit around asking why we don't put the same time and money into medicine that we do into other industries, given how important human health is to us.

Should it languish at number 112 below vanity publishing and the Christmas novelty hat industry !?  ;) I'm sure in that world the day your son or friend gets cancer you'd think to yourself why on earth is medicine not higher up on our list of priorities.


Irrespective of the reliability of the source (and I think that it is generally considered to be a logical fallacy to consider a claim to be necessarily wrong because the source has been found to be unreliable or sensationalist)

Yes, but you can quite reasonably believe the source to be unreliable if the source has repeatedly been show to be unreliable - that's not to say it is, just that it's reasonable to believe it is.

As a general point, I'd say taking health advice from the Daily Mail is a pretty stupid thing to do, you could of course follow the references and check out actual study for yourself, but the Daily Mail isn't the sort of publication that's going to supply references, it is after all interested in selling newspapers and advertising space rather than promoting scientific literacy.

Their basic model hasn't changed, sift through a medical study looking for something interesting (if statistically unremarkable or insignificant), strip away all context, absolutely everything, exaggerate its meaning and report it as inerrant fact.

So a study on - (made up as an example) - eating cheese tells us that cheese causes a mild increase in asthma symptons in 0.023% of women who are taking analgesics during pregnancy . . . this information is fed through the Daily Mail health sections's click-bait machine and out comes the following headline 'Doctors warn cheese causes asthma !' - and of course there would have been no warning from doctors of any description, in fact in the same study there may have been a figure just a couple of pages further on that says . . . 'and the study also found a small improvement in asthma in around 6% of women with an increase in dairy consumption' - but the 'XXX causes YYY' headlines have been found to be the ones that sell papers.

is it really surprising that anyone who says anything outside the confines of the "medical world" is considered, if the view becomes popular, to be a laughing stock?

Do you have anything to support the claim that anyone who says anything outside the confines of the "medical world" is treated in this way, or is this derision only aimed at people making unreasonable medical claims they have no evidence for ?


_"Meanwhile we're all getting sicker, with cancer and circulatory diseases . . .

Is there any evidence for this ? For the idea that we are all getting sicker ?
« Last Edit: November 15, 2014, 07:03:02 AM by P Jaques »
No, no, no, no, stop, stop, stop . . . you're wrong and I'm right . . . can we have the next caller please Mike.

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Re: Is Stefan Molyneux’s Freedomain Radio responsible for a suicide?
« Reply #38 on: November 15, 2014, 08:50:18 AM »
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I'm not sure what the point is you are making here, if there is one ?

Am I short on points? Perhaps so. Re-reading it seems to me that I made the point in the next paragraph, but I might be wrong. I should premise the matter with an admission to great thickness of the mind. I failed utterly at school to gain any kind of distinction and fell into a profession that is not entirely well paid and quite harsh in some aspects. Also, I couldn't understand a science book without, at the very least, careful and patient coaching, neither of which I am fond of, so I prefer to remain thick.

I suppose it might be that I have points and others don't see them, since they bring to the table some little thickness of their own. That is an argument I've tried in the past, but it rarely gets me very far so I've more or less given up on it.

My own sister thinks she is cleverer than me, and she has used that estimation to make sure I don't get some sorely needed cash. Now, I suspect that the cleverness thing is constructive to her argument, but the ensuing conversation would be so convoluted and would so inevitably lead to great uppitiness that I cannot face it.

As for the substantive matter of your objections, I'm sure you raise some excellent points. The statistics will probably  confirm your view, but I am by nature suspicious of the source and intention of such statistics so it's a conversation that looks to be dead in the water from the get-go and I prefer not to pursue it.

However, I might raise an objection from time to time when I disagree with things I read, however founded or unfounded such a disagreement might be.

You have to some extent touched on a delicate topic, because I enjoy the DM for all its silliness. On the highbrowish side I think it's worth noting that Peter Hitchens has a weekly column in the newspaper (although some people don't care for him of course), while on the other side it is a very popular newspaper with a large number of people without a great deal of excessive schooling, and I like those people in the main and respect their views and preferences. They sometimes seem to have quite a bit of common sense about them and they choose their newspaper accordingly.

Elvis_left_the_building

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Re: Is Stefan Molyneux’s Freedomain Radio responsible for a suicide?
« Reply #39 on: November 22, 2014, 05:26:18 PM »
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Easy @Jaque, who is invested in a cure is not invested in prevention and antibiotics and other pills are a huge part of the business, even if they are part of the problem instead of the solution. It has no use to lump the whole pharma industry into the category helpfull.