Author Topic: Just a dumb Question  (Read 14268 times)

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Patrick Leonard

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Just a dumb Question
« on: April 05, 2015, 02:52:11 AM »
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I noticed we're against the constitution here (or at-least we don't like certain aspects of the constitution).

But why is it that we're against it? We're about freedoms here and the constitution grants rights to the citizens of the united states, it states the bare minimum freedoms we have.

And how do I know (or believe) that the bill of rights is a statement of minimum rights?

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

If I understand that clause correctly, it's stating that if rights aren't prohibited by the state, they're reserved to the people.

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mikef

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Re: Just a dumb Question
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2015, 06:48:19 AM »
+1
I noticed we're against the constitution here (or at-least we don't like certain aspects of the constitution).

Who's we?

jolly_roger

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Re: Just a dumb Question
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2015, 07:22:33 AM »
+4
Yeah, looks like you're assuming everybody here is on the same page politically, which is not the case.
FDR Liberated is a mish mash of people of all sorts of walks of life, ideologies, and worldviews, unified only by their opposition to Freedomain Radio (and even that is not a requirement. We'd be happy to have some FDR fans over here, but they don't seem to want to hang around here).

Even among libertarians there is no uniform view on the constitution. Constitutionalists are one of the factions of the libertarian movement after all.

But if you're interested in arguments against it, I think the best case was made by Lysander Spooner in "No Treason: The Constitution Of No Authority", which you can:

And which from what I remember boils down to
  • People can't be bound by a contract they did not consent to
  • Pragmatically, the constitution failed to limit the expansion of government.

Patrick Leonard

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Re: Just a dumb Question
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2015, 01:51:53 PM »
+1
  • People can't be bound by a contract they did not consent to
  • Pragmatically, the constitution failed to limit the expansion of government.

I think those are both good talking/argument points. It could be that like many things, the constitution said a lot of true things but fell short of being perfect.

And yes maybe a new liberal/libertarian idea would be to allow the resigning of the constitution every year. This might require constitutions to become more local (as getting 300+ million people to agree on one thing isn't easy), but I think it could be a step in the right direction towards liberty.

Also I got the general vibe that the constitution wasn't liked here from freedom feen's glossary.

Constitution Humper = Someone who thinks the Constitution of the United States is handed down from God and is infallible. Also anyone who thinks that documents grant rights. Both ideas ignore the fact that the Constitution allows government, taxation, tyranny, and is a social contract that you did not sign. (See also THE CONSTITUTION IS WRITTEN ON SHEEP.)

But since this seems to be a place where we talk ideologies, I'd say at the bare minimum I'm middle ground libertarian.

My idea of a perfect world is one where everyone has individual freedoms, but at the same time we don't forget the importance of helping others. There are a lot of people that if you just push them in the right direction, they'll begin to prosper independently. (just an example: take people in wheel chairs and give them new legs, Helping the emotionally distraught to realize maybe it's not that bad with some logic and get them on their feet) In my opinion, having a free market is a beautiful idea, just we need to get people equipped correctly for it.

Not sure really what to call my idea. Maybe Free Market backed up with a little socialism?
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X

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Re: Just a dumb Question
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2015, 02:43:07 PM »
+1
I noticed we're against the constitution here (or at-least we don't like certain aspects of the constitution).

This forum is a place where people critical of Stefan Molyneux and his ideas can share their opinions, it's got nothing to do with the constitution, let alone a place when everyone is against the constitution.

You may as well start a post with 'I noticed we're all from the UK here' or 'I noticed we're all vegetarians here' . . .  ;D

Patrick Leonard

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Re: Just a dumb Question
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2015, 03:05:52 PM »
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I noticed we're against the constitution here (or at-least we don't like certain aspects of the constitution).

This forum is a place where people critical of Stefan Molyneux and his ideas can share their opinions, it's got nothing to do with the constitution, let alone a place when everyone is against the constitution.

You may as well start a post with 'I noticed we're all from the UK here' or 'I noticed we're all vegetarians here' . . .  ;D

lawl I don't think I fit into the vegetarian or UK category but i was just asking why. Maybe I should have put the question on Freedom Feens.
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mikef

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Re: Just a dumb Question
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2015, 07:26:01 PM »
+1
For me it's quite simple.  I don't like the constitution.  As a contract, it is not something I would want to sign or be bound by.  Yet by dint of living in a certain geographical area I am literally forced to obey those who are supposedly authorised by it.    And it is backed up by very real threats if I don't.  I don't consider this civilized behaviour.  Where is my right of freedom of association?

Patrick Leonard

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Re: Just a dumb Question
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2015, 09:08:37 PM »
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"Where is my right of freedom of association?"

explain better?
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mikef

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Re: Just a dumb Question
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2015, 03:10:21 AM »
+1
"Where is my right of freedom of association?"

explain better?

Sure.  The group that calls itself government is forcing me to associate with it.   I didn't choose to associate with them and most likely wouldn't if I had the freedom to say no like I do with all other groups I associate with.

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Re: Just a dumb Question
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2015, 11:17:38 AM »
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Sure.  The group that calls itself government is forcing me to associate with it.   I didn't choose to associate with them and most likely wouldn't if I had the freedom to say no like I do with all other groups I associate with.

So if I understand this is the general argument for state's rights as well?

I approve!  :)
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Patrick Leonard

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Re: Just a dumb Question
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2015, 07:11:05 PM »
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"Where is my right of freedom of association?"

explain better?

Sure.  The group that calls itself government is forcing me to associate with it.   I didn't choose to associate with them and most likely wouldn't if I had the freedom to say no like I do with all other groups I associate with.

Forcing us to live by rules we didn't consent to.

Forcing us to fund their operations and pay for services we may or may not want, or may wish to trade for elsewhere.

Starting wars "on our behalf" whether we support the cause or not.

That's why I believe the constitution (or similar document) should be subject to re-consideration and have to be re-passed every 25 years or so. (but of course we have to get people to be f*cking educated and decent enough before we try something like this)
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mikef

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Re: Just a dumb Question
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2015, 11:29:23 PM »
+1
Sure.  The group that calls itself government is forcing me to associate with it.   I didn't choose to associate with them and most likely wouldn't if I had the freedom to say no like I do with all other groups I associate with.

So if I understand this is the general argument for state's rights as well?

I approve!  :)

No.  Because State government works the exact same way.   It's just at a different level.  The forced association between me and the state government still exists.


That's why I believe the constitution (or similar document) should be subject to re-consideration and have to be re-passed every 25 years or so. (but of course we have to get people to be f*cking educated and decent enough before we try something like this)

No, it would have to be more like a real contract.  And an individual one.
eg.  Once signed by me, no new amendments can be made to it without written consent of both parties.  ie.  no new laws can be made  to bind me without my explicit consent.   Penalty clauses for breaking any part of the contract.  A specific time period, agreed to by both parties as to when it ends.  No more money can be extracted from than agreed to in the contract, etc.  Basically no arbitrary changing of the contract by one party without the other's consent.

And the government is forbidden from preventing competitors from offering the same services to me like it does today.   Because if I need some of it's services, and it is the only game in town, then it will just offer me a crappy contract and say "take it or leave it" and I'll be forced to take it.   There needs to be competition so I can shop for the best deal.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2015, 11:33:00 PM by mikef »

mikef

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Re: Just a dumb Question
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2015, 09:49:24 PM »
+1
That's why I believe the constitution (or similar document) should be subject to re-consideration and have to be re-passed every 25 years or so. (but of course we have to get people to be f*cking educated and decent enough before we try something like this)

Unless it's pass unanimously by everyone subject to it, it's not a valid contract.  Where is the opt-out for those that want no part of it?

Even if you did pass it unanimously you still have the problem that those who aren't born yet haven't agreed to it.

Patrick Leonard

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Re: Just a dumb Question
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2015, 12:22:52 AM »
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Sure.  The group that calls itself government is forcing me to associate with it.   I didn't choose to associate with them and most likely wouldn't if I had the freedom to say no like I do with all other groups I associate with.

So if I understand this is the general argument for state's rights as well?

I approve!  :)

No.  Because State government works the exact same way.   It's just at a different level.  The forced association between me and the state government still exists.


That's why I believe the constitution (or similar document) should be subject to re-consideration and have to be re-passed every 25 years or so. (but of course we have to get people to be f*cking educated and decent enough before we try something like this)

No, it would have to be more like a real contract.  And an individual one.
eg.  Once signed by me, no new amendments can be made to it without written consent of both parties.  ie.  no new laws can be made  to bind me without my explicit consent.   Penalty clauses for breaking any part of the contract.  A specific time period, agreed to by both parties as to when it ends.  No more money can be extracted from than agreed to in the contract, etc.  Basically no arbitrary changing of the contract by one party without the other's consent.

And the government is forbidden from preventing competitors from offering the same services to me like it does today.   Because if I need some of it's services, and it is the only game in town, then it will just offer me a crappy contract and say "take it or leave it" and I'll be forced to take it.   There needs to be competition so I can shop for the best deal.

Okay but usually political changes happen in baby steps. Giving a state of the US the right to secede and a contract that is subject to re-ratification by public vote gets us closer to the things you've stated, not further.

That's why I believe the constitution (or similar document) should be subject to re-consideration and have to be re-passed every 25 years or so. (but of course we have to get people to be f*cking educated and decent enough before we try something like this)

Unless it's pass unanimously by everyone subject to it, it's not a valid contract.  Where is the opt-out for those that want no part of it?

There almost has to be a standard of who can vote then if that's the case (or atleast more localized government) but even then there'd have to be an age standard at the bare minimum because children would likely want retarded things like free icecream day that would just waste resources and time.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2015, 12:24:54 AM by Patrick Leonard »
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mikef

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Re: Just a dumb Question
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2015, 12:40:56 AM »
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Okay but usually political changes happen in baby steps. Giving a state of the US the right to secede and a contract that is subject to re-ratification by public vote gets us closer to the things you've stated, not further.

I've been around for a few decades now, I've seen gradual political changes, and it doesn't really mean much to me as an idea.  I don't know what it will take for real change but I find it difficult to advocate for ideas that haven't worked in the past (eg. the constitution).   Not saying that you are wrong, just that it holds no appeal for me.  I know where society should get to, but don't have a good idea how it's going to get there.   I'm focussing more on my own personal freedom at this point, because politics just completely disgusts me, and is, as far as I can tell, useless.
 
There almost has to be a standard of who can vote then if that's the case (or atleast more localized government) but even then there'd have to be an age standard at the bare minimum because children would likely want retarded things like free icecream day that would just waste resources and time.

The nature of democracy is that it will be abused.    Almost always by adults.