Author Topic: MARIA KONNIKOVA: Born to Be Conned  (Read 12875 times)

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Elvis_left_the_building

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Re: MARIA KONNIKOVA: Born to Be Conned
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2015, 11:03:05 PM »
0
One of the essential aspects of those who criticize PUA as undue influence and manipulation is that they can never define FOR THEMSELVES  what the words mean and why PUA exhibits these definitions.

The second and more important aspect is that they share Stefan's desire to define FOR WOMEN what they "should" and "should not" be attracted to, rather than letting the girl determine this for herself.   Just as Stefan is misogynistic whenever doing this, so is anyone who criticizes PUA for these reasons.

Since when is suggesting what someone should do misogynistic?  :o By this logic is anyone who suggests what men should do a mysandrist. Which is basically most feminists combined. Although they are mysandrist for a different reason. ;)

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Re: MARIA KONNIKOVA: Born to Be Conned
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2015, 07:53:36 AM »
0

Since when is suggesting what someone should do misogynistic?  :o


It's not misogynistic when I do it, but it's misogynistic when Disillusioned and any other PUA hater does it.   

For real.

There's a difference between, "I've had a lot of success picking up women by lifting weights, dressing better, and learning different types of openers.  You should do the same." and "Anyone who studies those openers or any form of PUA is practicing manipulation and undue influence."

The first is nothing but an aesthetic suggestion, whereas the second contains moralistic language - which implies that anyone who disagrees is a moral failure.  When Disillusioned and Stefan say these things, they must support their positions with a moral argument, otherwise they're protecting their moral failure onto others.   


Quote
By this logic is anyone who suggests what men should do a mysandrist. Which is basically most feminists combined. Although they are mysandrist for a different reason. ;)


Feminists will at least attempt to make moral arguments.   But these arguments are based on easily debunked falsehoods, leaving them with no argument. So they, too, are projecting their moral failure onto others.

It took me a long time to realize that I was making bad moral arguments to get women to change their aesthetic desires.   But once I stopped doing that, my happiness dramatically increased, as did my success with women.

And no one more strongly and stupidly wants to use bad moral arguments to change women's aesthetic desires than the male listeners of FDR!  Exposing this got me banned.   
« Last Edit: December 12, 2015, 03:09:19 PM by RecentlyBanned »

Disillusioned

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Re: MARIA KONNIKOVA: Born to Be Conned
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2015, 11:37:22 AM »
+2
It's not misogynistic when I do it, but it's misogynistic when Disillusioned and any other PUA hater does it.   

For real.

LMAO

For real.
“I think it's much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers which might be wrong.”
― Richard Feynman

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Re: MARIA KONNIKOVA: Born to Be Conned
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2015, 01:25:03 PM »
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It's not misogynistic when I do it, but it's misogynistic when Disillusioned and any other PUA hater does it.   

For real.

LMAO

For real.



I made an argument as to why we're different.   You have neither refuted my argument nor made your own.   

: o )

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Re: MARIA KONNIKOVA: Born to Be Conned
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2015, 05:47:02 PM »
+3
I made an argument as to why we're different.   You have neither refuted my argument nor made your own.

People have made numerous arguments challenging your various claims, the overwhelming majority of which you've simply avoided so it's not surprising that people now take conversations with you less than seriously . . . . . the trajectory of these exchanges is now familiar to most who have attempted to debate with you . . . you grant yourself the right to state whatever you like along with the intellectually dishonest shield of ignoring legitimate challenges to these ideas, ignoring follow up questions and generally cherry picking your way through the conversation . . . while at the same time demanding answers, quotes, refutations, examples, timestamps (and so on) from others . . . . like I say, I suspect most people now don't take talking to you particularly seriously.
"In every ideologically based community, there's a group that's elated the confirmation bias machine has finally gotten around to visiting their neighbourhood, like the ice cream truck" . . money detonator

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Re: MARIA KONNIKOVA: Born to Be Conned
« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2015, 07:50:40 PM »
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One of the simplest reasons I don't accept "links" as evidence is because I can assert that a particular well-written article praises Stefan's arguments, and then link to one of QuestEon's wonderful articles.   

To anyone who understands QuestEon's articles, this is a bad argument.  But not nearly everyone who posts a series of  "links", (as Disillusioned did), understands the thesis of those links.   Hence, Disillusioned has no argument.   All he has its the unsupported claim that PUA is undue influence and manipulation.

: o )

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Re: MARIA KONNIKOVA: Born to Be Conned
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2015, 12:35:44 AM »
+4
One of the simplest reasons I don't accept "links" as evidence . . . .


Yet you are happy to argue your position with links . . . .

RecentlyBanned wrote:

" . . . this article appears on Vox Day's website, it was actually written by Edward Feser."

http://voxday.blogspot.com/2015/10/the-disorder-of-counterfeit-virtues.html

. . . . . . . . . .

RecentlyBanned wrote:

”At this point, I intended to link to a three part series from Therawness.com, which argues that girls mature faster than boys, but women are less mature than men.  But those articles no longer exist“

. . . . . . . . . .

 RecentlyBanned wrote:

“What I said was, "I've studied r/K selection for around two years by perusing this blog http://www.anonymousconservative.com/blog/ The Anonymous Conservative wrote the book The Evolutionary Biology Behind Politics that Molyneux heavily cites in his r/K presentations."

. . . . . . . . . .

RecentlyBanned wrote:

http://www.anonymousconservative.com/blog/stefan-molyneux-interviews-bill-whittle-on-rk-theory/

”AC posted that earlier, so he knows that Bill Whittle spoke with Stefan Molyneux about his book.”

. . . . . . . . . .

RecentlyBanned wrote:

”AC speaks pretty often about Disgust in his blog, and this article captures about 45% of his thesis on Disgust.”

http://www.anonymousconservative.com/blog/on-gay-pride/




. . . etc etc . . . .


« Last Edit: December 13, 2015, 12:38:39 AM by : o ) »
"In every ideologically based community, there's a group that's elated the confirmation bias machine has finally gotten around to visiting their neighbourhood, like the ice cream truck" . . money detonator

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Re: MARIA KONNIKOVA: Born to Be Conned
« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2015, 07:40:37 AM »
0
Would someone explain the difference between posting ONLY LINKS (what Disillusioned did) and posting LINKS plus COMMENTARY plus ARGUMENTS in my own words to the idiot who posted before me?


: o )

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Re: MARIA KONNIKOVA: Born to Be Conned
« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2015, 03:21:00 PM »
+2
Would someone explain the difference between posting ONLY LINKS (what Disillusioned did) and posting LINKS plus COMMENTARY plus ARGUMENTS in my own words to the idiot who posted before me?

 ;D

RecentlyBanned on December 08, 2015: . . . "You are now on ignore."

Me on December 08, 2015: "Nope . . . you are still reading my posts.  :)"


Your special amygdala mind control K-selected powers are more powerful that I first though, managing to read my posts after placing me on 'ignore'. Lol  ;D
« Last Edit: December 13, 2015, 03:22:32 PM by : o ) »
"In every ideologically based community, there's a group that's elated the confirmation bias machine has finally gotten around to visiting their neighbourhood, like the ice cream truck" . . money detonator

money detonator

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Re: MARIA KONNIKOVA: Born to Be Conned
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2016, 09:12:31 PM »
+2
Maria Konnikova interview in the Atlantic:


Can You Spot a Liar?
Probably not. But here are some techniques grifters use, courtesy of Maria Konnikova and her new book about con artists.
http://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/01/can-you-spot-a-liar/423588/

CupOTea

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Re: MARIA KONNIKOVA: Born to Be Conned
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2016, 02:25:00 AM »
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Maria Konnikova interview in the Atlantic:


Can You Spot a Liar?
Probably not. But here are some techniques grifters use, courtesy of Maria Konnikova and her new book about con artists.
http://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/01/can-you-spot-a-liar/423588/


Quotes from "Can You Spot A Liar?"

Khazan: Why are we more likely to fall for cons when we’re feeling isolated and lonely?

Konnikova: Emotional vulnerability is one of the things that unites victims of cons, in the sense that it’s not so much a personality trait, as where you are in your life. Because what happens when you’re down, when you’re vulnerable, there’s change going on, and your world no longer makes sense the way that it used to, so you’re particularly vulnerable to people who make sense of it for you. You want that meaning. You want that sense of connection and con artists are very happy to supply it for you.
Real men, proper big hairy real men who fight wild animals, naked, in the wilderness, with just a hammer and a copy of UPB, would shout, in their big hairy K-selected manly voices "look at me, I'm K-selected and I'm kicking this bear's ass, and I haven't got any pants on!"   : o )

money detonator

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Re: MARIA KONNIKOVA: Born to Be Conned
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2016, 02:09:42 PM »
+2
Quote
Khazan: One thing I found surprising was that cons are underreported. Why is that?

Konnikova: Part of it is that people really value their reputations, so they don’t want others to know that they fell victim. The other thing is that they value their reputation so much is that they don’t want themselves to know. They would much rather believe that they were the victims of bad luck than that they were victims of a con artist. Our self-deception is incredibly powerful, because we have this very strong protective mechanism where we want to think of ourselves in the best possible light. No one wants to think of themselves as a sucker or as someone who falls for some con artist, who to someone else might seem obvious.

You want to think of yourself as someone who’s smart, as someone who’s savvy, as someone who would know better, and so that’s exactly what you do, you say, “Oh, bad luck, luck of the draw, it was just a bad investment decision or this person just wasn’t ready for a serious relationship,” whatever it is. So the funny thing is, most people don’t learn from their mistakes because they don’t acknowledge that they made them. One thing that I learned while I was researching the book, which I had no idea existed, was that there are sucker lists out there that con artists buy and sell of people who’ve already fallen for a scam. Those are the best victims, the ones who have already been victimized once, because they’ve done such a good job rationalizing that they’ll do it again.

Khazan: That’s sad, because that means it's more likely to happen to those people over and over again.

Konnikova: Absolutely. It’s crazy and it is very sad. Something that doesn’t come out that much in the book, on purpose, because it would have been a very different book, but I struggled with it a bit, is how much of the victims to really put in there, because if you write the entire book from the victim’s point of view, you'll be crying by the end, because there are a lot of really terrible stories.

The discussion in this section about victims is something that I've thought about a lot in the past.

It isn't unusual for those who walk away from Molyneux to then find themselves in another high demand group or controlling relationship.  From personal observation, there are plenty of predatory types that circle the ex-member community and even the FDR community on their board.  Lurk around the FDR board and you'll see posters recruiting for other groups or offering their services as unlicensed therapists or life coaches.  Those on the board are already self selected and identified themselves as victims of abuse or someone suffering from loss or trauma.  By their membership and very presence, they've identified themselves as vulnerable to financial scams willing to pay a quack like Molyneux.  It's a perfect (and free!) sucker list and hunting ground for another predator or victim-victimizer.

And if it is true that coming forward as a victim puts one at further risk for being marked by another scammer, it would be a deterrent to speaking out, or reporting the incident.  So, it might be more than just pride and preserving reputation, but a preventative measure taken by a victim.

It's tough to expose the con without victims coming forward and telling their stories, like on here.   There are sometimes unintended consequences to being identified and labeled as a victim, and it's great that this forum allows people to tell their stories anonymously.  Be careful and cautious.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2016, 02:48:26 PM by money detonator »

CupOTea

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Re: MARIA KONNIKOVA: Born to Be Conned
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2016, 11:14:22 PM »
0
It isn't unusual for those who walk away from Molyneux to then find themselves in another high demand group or controlling relationship.  From personal observation, there are plenty of predatory types that circle the ex-member community and even the FDR community on their board.  Lurk around the FDR board and you'll see posters recruiting for other groups or offering their services as unlicensed therapists or life coaches.  Those on the board are already self selected and identified themselves as victims of abuse or someone suffering from loss or trauma.  By their membership and very presence, they've identified themselves as vulnerable to financial scams willing to pay a quack like Molyneux.  It's a perfect (and free!) sucker list and hunting ground for another predator or victim-victimizer.

Are you aware of specific cases of exmembers jumping into another destructive group or relationship?   Personally I know of a couple people who did that and I was wondering how common it was. 
Real men, proper big hairy real men who fight wild animals, naked, in the wilderness, with just a hammer and a copy of UPB, would shout, in their big hairy K-selected manly voices "look at me, I'm K-selected and I'm kicking this bear's ass, and I haven't got any pants on!"   : o )

money detonator

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Re: MARIA KONNIKOVA: Born to Be Conned
« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2016, 12:52:51 PM »
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Are you aware of specific cases of exmembers jumping into another destructive group or relationship?   Personally I know of a couple people who did that and I was wondering how common it was.

Yes, but it wouldn't be good to discuss them.  It's not scientific.  I can't be sure it's really a pattern that is worse than the general population, or just that it is more noticeable.

Molyneux is the ultimate victim turned victimizer, and the more ambitious in his herd want to emulate him.  This makes his community the worst place to be, imo, because they are all swimming in a pool with a bunch of wannabe victim victimizers in training.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2016, 01:27:48 PM by money detonator »

CupOTea

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Re: MARIA KONNIKOVA: Born to Be Conned
« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2016, 04:43:53 PM »
0
Are you aware of specific cases of exmembers jumping into another destructive group or relationship?   Personally I know of a couple people who did that and I was wondering how common it was.

Yes, but it wouldn't be good to discuss them.  It's not scientific.  I can't be sure it's really a pattern that is worse than the general population, or just that it is more noticeable.

Molyneux is the ultimate victim turned victimizer, and the more ambitious in his herd want to emulate him.  This makes his community the worst place to be, imo, because they are all swimming in a pool with a bunch of wannabe victim victimizers in training.

I heard that the TB are usually going though a very painful time after leaving FDR.  Some put their feelings and FDR ideas into a closet and don't deal with it.  Not healthy and it comes out later in unexpected ways.  Or there are ones that take time to think about it and develop the thinking skills to discern ideas put out by other people.  They do the best.  They're better than the general population at that and are wiser than the average guy in avoiding destructive influence. 
Real men, proper big hairy real men who fight wild animals, naked, in the wilderness, with just a hammer and a copy of UPB, would shout, in their big hairy K-selected manly voices "look at me, I'm K-selected and I'm kicking this bear's ass, and I haven't got any pants on!"   : o )