Author Topic: Cult deprogramming  (Read 10131 times)

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RecentlyBanned

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Cult deprogramming
« on: January 05, 2016, 05:28:25 PM »
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Recently Banned, you might want to check out what cult experts say.   It could also be called a destructive group.  I cut and pasted part of an article in the Guardian by one of the foremost cult experts, Rick Ross.

My favorite blogger is The Last Psychiatrist, and I'll be mimicking his meandering but informative style. 


I.

If the greatest psychologist in history - who has won multiple awards (including a Nobel prize), has multiple masters degrees, and has a twenty-five year long track record of excellence in psychology - were to read the writings (or watch the videos) of a man she has never met and declare him a psychopath, the only thing you should care about is that she's never met the guy. 


II. 

My favorite psychological experiment was explained in the 1994 book, House of Cards, which is a wonderful contrarian / dissenting book on psychology-as-a-field. 

You begin with an unknown number of highly-educated volunteers from fields like mathematics, physics, medicine, economics who also have zero experience or training as psychologists.  You give them an hour to study the DSM-IV (the official doctrine of psychology, which illustrates which symptom clusters correspond to which disorders), and then have them interview five people who may (or may not) have any psychological disorders.  You tell these highly-educated volunteers that they can ask anything they want, but their goal is to determine which people have which psychological disorders (if any). 

You then allow an unknown number of trained psychologists to interview these same five people, determining which people have which psychological disorders (if any). 

The point is to determine whether there's any significant difference in performance between the trained psychologists and the highly-intelligent-but-psychologically-untrained volunteers.  And the end result was that there was little significant difference between the two groups.  The trained psychologists and the psychologically-untrained-volunteers performed almost equally well. 

At this point, if you've concluded that this experiment means psychology is a fraud, you drew the wrong conclusion.  And if you've concluded that this experiment means that you don't need any training in psychology to be a psychologist, you drew the wrong (and very dangerous) conclusion. 


III. 

I didn't witness my favorite ethical debate in radio history, but I did read The Last Psychiatrist's summary of it. 

He describes someone I like to call Asshole Phil, who argues that if a pill existed that magically erased a woman's memory of being raped, then rape itself would no longer be immoral.  Mind you, Asshole Phil isn't saying that he would rape a woman if such a pill existed.  He's saying that if someone else were to rape a woman, administer the pill to erase her memory, and produce a woman who will never know the pain, suffering, nor horror of the rape - then this would make the rape no-longer-immoral.   

Two people, including the radio host, indulge the question and try to debate its finer technicalities.  But a random Black man, perhaps an intern, won the debate by asking Phil, "So if I get three of my homies to gang-rape you, that would be okay if we administered the drug afterwards?" 

What ultimately makes Asshole Phil an Asshole is not that he asked the question, but that his face lit up in surprise when the Black guy asked him this question.  Asshole Phil is Asshole Phil because he never thought of it that way. 

And Phil's example is why you should only care that the psychologist never actually met the guy.


IV.

As much as I disagree with psychologists, I know that psychology is an intellectually rigorous field with staunch ethical guidelines.  Psychologists aren't merely individuals who understand the DSM-IV; they're also individuals who learn about ethics-in-psychology.  They're also required to undergo routine performance reviews, screening especially for ethical violations that could make them lose their licenses to practice. 

Thus, if a psychologist wants to diagnose someone with Borderline Persoanlity Disorder, she has to follow strict rules over number of interviews, number of second-opinions, and conditions under which she can (or cannot) disclose that diagnosis to others.  And if psychologists were to stop following these guidelines, the ethical disasters that would result would destroy psychology's legitimacy in the eyes of everyone. 

Which means that the psychologist who never met the guy, but still wants to call him a psychopath, is behaving unethically - which is all you should really care about. 


V. 


I know how to be a psychologist, but I've no idea how to become a cult expert.  So the first thing I said to myself before I even read your list CupOTea was, "If there are no agreed upon guidelines as to what a 'cult expert' must know before he can claim to be a cult expert, and if there are no agreed upon ethical guidelines that a "cult expert' must never breach, then this whole 'cult expert' thing is disastrous." 

Sure enough, Rick Ross's Wikipedia page calls him a "deprogrammer".  And under the Wikipedia entry for "deprogramming" is the following. 

Quote
Deprogramming refers to coercive measures to force[1] a person in a controversial belief system to change those beliefs and abandon allegiance to the religious, political, economic, or social group associated with the belief system.[2][3] Methods and practices of self-identified "deprogrammers" have involved kidnapping, false imprisonment, and coercion,[4] and sometimes resulted in criminal convictions of the deprogrammers.[5][6] Classic deprogramming regimens are designed for individuals taken against their will, which has led to controversies over freedom of religion, kidnapping, and civil rights, as well as the violence which is sometimes involved.


And under Rick Ross's Wikipedia entry is the following:

Quote
Ross has intervened in more than 350 deprogramming cases in various countries, including a number of involuntary deprogramming interventions at the requests of parents whose children had joined controversial groups and movements.[1][2]

Ross faced unlawful imprisonment charges over a 1991 forcible deprogramming of United Pentecostal Church International member Jason Scott. Ross was found not guilty by the jury at trial. In 1995, a civil lawsuit filed by Scott resulted in a multi-million dollar civil judgement against Ross and his co-defendants, which led Ross to declare personal bankruptcy.



VI. 


Do you want a system wherein someone can pay the world's greatest psychologist to call you a Sociopath, thereby robbing you of your job and (potentially) your family?  I sure don't.  But that's why I support neither Stefan Molyneux NOR Rick Alan Ross.  Molyneux, because he uses psychology to erroneously call parents "abusers"; Ross because he is paid to kidnap and verbally abuse people, simply because their parents or relatives don't like the group they belong to! 

I understand that you've lost your son to Stefan's influence, but calling FDR a "cult" because "Rick Alan Ross says so" is dangerous.  Worse, Rick Alan Ross doesn't even know that FDR exists.  You're just using his list, much like those highly intelligent doctors and lawyers were using the DSM-IV, to call Stefan a "cult leader". 

You, nor anyone else - INCLUDING psychologists themselves - should be ethically allowed to call people psychopaths, sociopaths, BPDs, or cult leaders without having met the guy.  It sets a dangerous precedent that you don't want to be used against you. 

RecentlyBanned.

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Re: Cult deprogramming
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2016, 07:14:14 PM »
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You, nor anyone else - INCLUDING psychologists themselves - should be ethically allowed to call people psychopaths, sociopaths, BPDs, or cult leaders without having met the guy.  It sets a dangerous precedent that you don't want to be used against you.


Well said brother! Sieg Heil!

Who do these r/people think they are calling people names without any sort of factual basis! These r/selected fools think that can make such sweeping judgements without any kind of evidence, they think they can label people as borderline or sociopathic without any kind of empirical evidence! Sieg Heil!

It's not like us K-folk™ would try to pretend we could diagnose Asperger syndrome online without having met the target of our disdain! Or label people we know nothing about as 'virgins' or 'intellectually inferior' or 'mentally weak' or 'socially weak' or 'weak minded' or 'dumb' or 'irrational' or 'pathetic' or 'suicidal' or 'lacking in integrity' or 'lacking in courage' or 'autistic' or 'aspergic' or 'lacking in self-awareness' or 'retarded' or 'obese' or 'defective' or 'having a deficient spirit' - K would never do that!!! Like you say brother it sets a dangerous precedent that we don't want to be used against us.


Sieg Heil!




Opinions, like facts, are supposed to be helpful.  Unless you're an Asperger'd sufferer, or a misanthrope, or a sociopath.  When you're either of these things, you'll try to point out that all opinions are "just opinions", lumping together the most helpful opinion that helps someone earn 100k into the same category as a second opinion that causes someone to suffer a debilitating injury.



« Last Edit: January 06, 2016, 05:38:48 AM by RecentlyBanned. »

CupOTea

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Re: Cult deprogramming
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2016, 10:43:54 PM »
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To round up this discussion, here's a video on psychopaths and sociopaths.

Real men, proper big hairy real men who fight wild animals, naked, in the wilderness, with just a hammer and a copy of UPB, would shout, in their big hairy K-selected manly voices "look at me, I'm K-selected and I'm kicking this bear's ass, and I haven't got any pants on!"   : o )

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Re: Cult deprogramming
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2016, 08:22:09 AM »
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So no one on this message board is going to denounce Rick Alan Ross's use of kidnapping and verbal abuse at the behest of parents or relatives who were paying him to commit these acts?

Elucidated

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Re: Cult deprogramming
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2016, 05:31:26 PM »
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So no one on this message board is going to denounce Rick Alan Ross's use of kidnapping and verbal abuse at the behest of parents or relatives who were paying him to commit these acts?

Please provide a evidence in the form of a reference

Mike_Lice

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Re: Cult deprogramming
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2016, 06:08:01 PM »
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So no one on this message board is going to denounce Rick Alan Ross's use of kidnapping and verbal abuse at the behest of parents or relatives who were paying him to commit these acts?

Please provide a evidence in the form of a reference

Im sure one of the RB parody accounts will have something funny to say about his :)

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Re: Cult deprogramming
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2016, 06:19:53 PM »
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So no one on this message board is going to denounce Rick Alan Ross's use of kidnapping and verbal abuse at the behest of parents or relatives who were paying him to commit these acts?

Please provide a evidence in the form of a reference

To date, four people have replied to this thread after I posted that Rick Alan Ross was convicted of certain crimes in civil court. 

Those crimes are detailed on Wikipedia as follows:
Quote
"Ross faced unlawful imprisonment charges over a 1991 forcible deprogramming of United Pentecostal Church International member Jason Scott, whose mother was referred to Ross by the CAN.  Ross was found not guilty by the jury at trial, but his associates pleaded guilty to the lesser charge of coercion and were sentenced to one-year jail terms.

Scott later filed a civil suit against Ross, two of his associates and CAN in federal court. In September 1995, a nine-member jury unanimously held the defendants liable for conspiracy to deprive Scott of his civil rights and religious liberties. In addition, the jury held that Ross and his associates (but not CAN) "intentionally or recklessly acted in a way so outrageous in character and so extreme in degree as to go beyond all possible bounds of decency and to be regarded as atrocious and utterly intolerable in a civilized community." The case resulted in an award of US$875,000 in compensatory damages and punitive damages in the amount of US$5,000,000 against Ross, US$1,000,000 against CAN, and US$250,000 against each of Ross's two other co-defendants. The case bankrupted the Cult Awareness Network and marked a watershed for non-traditional religions and the Christian countercult movement in North America.[24][25] It also forced Ross to declare personal bankruptcy.


The four members who have replied so far are Smiley Face, CupOTea, Mike Lice, and Elucidated.   None of these have said, "I don't support Rick Alan Ross, nor anyone convicted of those crimes, for any reason - including rescuing someone from a cult." 

Mike_Lice

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Re: Cult deprogramming
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2016, 07:07:59 PM »
+2
Quote
The four members who have replied so far are Smiley Face, CupOTea, Mike Lice, and Elucidated.   None of these have said, "I don't support Rick Alan Ross, nor anyone convicted of those crimes, for any reason - including rescuing someone from a cult."

To be honest I haven't done the research on this Ross guy to make sure your assessment is correct. Never heard of Ross before you mentioned him. So In my mind I thought it wouldn't be wise to comment on a person I knew nothing about. I don't want you to accuse me of being an R (again) for not doing research or something.
But thanks for showing me again how you think ... You think you are the center of the universe.

(Only Recentlybarnned and Recentlybanned. are the center of the universe. :P  )

PS. As far as I understand it Smiley face will never reply to you, he stated this to you. He will only copy paste a prewritten statement.

"You have repeatedly shown yourself unable to take part in a reasonable conversation, you have shown yourself to be an habitual liar who makes up claims about people and simply runs away when challenged on the claims you make up, you have been given chance after chance to engage in reasonable discussions and all you manage to do - even when approached reasonably - is to extend your list of schoolyard insults, so, from here on in, your comments will not be read by me, you will just get a cut and paste of this message."

RecentlyBanned

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Re: Cult deprogramming
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2016, 07:39:37 PM »
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Quote
The four members who have replied so far are Smiley Face, CupOTea, Mike Lice, and Elucidated.   None of these have said, "I don't support Rick Alan Ross, nor anyone convicted of those crimes, for any reason - including rescuing someone from a cult."

To be honest I haven't done the research on this Ross guy to make sure your assessment is correct. Never heard of Ross before you mentioned him. So In my mind I thought it wouldn't be wise to comment on a person I knew nothing about.

The necessary research requires about five minutes and a fifth grade education, both of which you possess.   Google "Rick Alan Ross convicted" or "Rick Alan Ross conviction" and you'll see multiple links confirming Mr. Ross's guilt.   

For all the negative shit Stefan Molyneux has done or said, he has never been convicted in any court for any crimes, let alone crimes that the convicting jury found, "beyond all possible bounds of decency" and "atrocious and intolerable in any civilized community". 

If FDR Liberated doesn't have the moral compass to denounce Rick Alan Ross, it doesn't have the moral compass to criticize Stefan Molyneux.

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Re: Cult deprogramming
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2016, 07:41:22 PM »
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Only Recentlybarnned and Recentlybanned. are the center of the universe. :P  )


Your r/mockery shall be your downfall, come the day of the great K/uprising we shall EXPOSE the r/selected like you by your HIP HOP DISCO music habits and your HOMOSEXUAL lifestyle and your LACK of MAGISTERIALLY POWERFUL AND HEROIC K-BALLS and your MARXIST COMMU-SEXUAL LIES!, if you are found to be mentally ASPARAGUS you will be brought before our K/SHARIA court where you will be judged by the 10 holy tenets laid down on the great stone tablets by part time internet "science" blogger Anonymous Conservative (blessed be his name) and Lord Molyneux (blessed be his name) and Prince Whittle of the internet (see above).

Sieg Heil!

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Re: Cult deprogramming
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2016, 07:57:05 PM »
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The necessary research requires about five minutes and a fifth grade education, both of which you possess.   Google "Rick Alan Ross convicted" or "Rick Alan Ross conviction" and you'll see multiple links confirming Mr. Ross's guilt.


Well said brother! When will these r/selected pigs learn to discuss what we've told them to discuss!!

First we told them they should be talking about RAPE! Instead of criticising Lord Molyneux, otherwise they, OBVIOUSLY, don't care about CHILD RAPE!!!! And now that we aren't talking about RAPE! (I forget why we aren't talking about RAPE!!?) ....but are now talking about Bill Whittle, sorry I mean Anonymous Conservative, sorry I mean Rick Alan Ross (who is he, is he an r/selected?) they should be DOING AS WE SAY!

Sieg Heil!    

If FDR Liberated doesn't have the moral compass to denounce Rick Alan Ross, it doesn't have the moral compass to criticize Stefan Molyneux.


Well said brother! When will these r/selected ASPARAGUSES (ASPARAGI?) learn that BEFORE you criticise Lord Molyneux you must first criticise Rick Alan Ross and before Rick Alan Ross you need to criticise Anonymous Conservative and before that Little Billy Whittle, there is a SPECIFIC ORDER in which you MUST criticise people (EVEN PEOPLE YOU HAVE NEVER HEARD OF!! Sieg Heil!), there is a hierarchy of criticism, if you get the order wrong YOUR CRITICISM DOESN'T COUNT! And you are likely to be A GAY! Sieg Heil!

These r/fools will LEARN all too soon of our RULES on the day of the great k/uprising, carry on your good works brother, tonight I train with Whittle and AC and Lord M in the secret K/caves, naked, sweaty, PROUD AND K we work our manly bodies into an indignant sweat, soon we will rise, soon, calm yourself brother, our time is coming.


Sieg Heil!    
« Last Edit: January 06, 2016, 09:12:49 PM by RecentlyBanned. »

Kaz

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Re: Cult deprogramming
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2016, 02:18:03 AM »
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Only Recentlybarnned and Recentlybanned. are the center of the universe. :P  )


Your r/mockery shall be your downfall, come the day of the great K/uprising we shall EXPOSE the r/selected like you by your HIP HOP DISCO music habits and your HOMOSEXUAL lifestyle and your LACK of MAGISTERIALLY POWERFUL AND HEROIC K-BALLS and your MARXIST COMMU-SEXUAL LIES!, if you are found to be mentally ASPARAGUS you will be brought before our K/SHARIA court where you will be judged by the 10 holy tenets laid down on the great stone tablets by part time internet "science" blogger Anonymous Conservative (blessed be his name) and Lord Molyneux (blessed be his name) and Prince Whittle of the internet (see above).

Sieg Heil!


Not if we steal your wheel barrows.
Just because you have left FDR, it doesn't mean that FDR has left you.

"Taking responsibility for something and self-blame are horses of two entirely different colors. The former is empowering; the latter is paralyzing." ~ John Rosemond, Ph.D

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Re: Cult deprogramming
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2016, 05:38:47 AM »
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The four members who have replied so far are Smiley Face, CupOTea, Mike Lice, and Elucidated.   None of these have said, "I don't support Rick Alan Ross, nor anyone convicted of those crimes, for any reason - including rescuing someone from a cult."

You have repeatedly shown yourself unable to take part in a reasonable conversation, you have shown yourself to be an habitual liar who makes up claims about people and simply runs away when challenged on the claims you make up, you have been given chance after chance to engage in reasonable discussions and all you manage to do - even when approached reasonably - is to extend your list of schoolyard insults, so, from here on in, your comments will not be read by me, you will just get a cut and paste of this message.
"In every ideologically based community, there's a group that's elated the confirmation bias machine has finally gotten around to visiting their neighbourhood, like the ice cream truck" . . money detonator

CupOTea

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Re: Cult deprogramming
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2016, 11:15:52 AM »
+1
Only Recentlybarnned and Recentlybanned. are the center of the universe. :P  )


Your r/mockery shall be your downfall, come the day of the great K/uprising we shall EXPOSE the r/selected like you by your HIP HOP DISCO music habits and your HOMOSEXUAL lifestyle and your LACK of MAGISTERIALLY POWERFUL AND HEROIC K-BALLS and your MARXIST COMMU-SEXUAL LIES!, if you are found to be mentally ASPARAGUS you will be brought before our K/SHARIA court where you will be judged by the 10 holy tenets laid down on the great stone tablets by part time internet "science" blogger Anonymous Conservative (blessed be his name) and Lord Molyneux (blessed be his name) and Prince Whittle of the internet (see above).

Sieg Heil!


Use this on your signature line.  Its expresses your basic thoughts very nicely.
Real men, proper big hairy real men who fight wild animals, naked, in the wilderness, with just a hammer and a copy of UPB, would shout, in their big hairy K-selected manly voices "look at me, I'm K-selected and I'm kicking this bear's ass, and I haven't got any pants on!"   : o )

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Re: Cult deprogramming
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2016, 11:17:28 AM »
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This is the best thread that has ever happened on FDR Liberated.  What was intended to be a discourse about Stefan Molyneux's "undue influence" has exposed the FDR Liberated community as unwilling to recognize and condemn "cult deprogramming techniques" like kidnapping for hire, twenty-four seven confinement, and verbal abuse.

This community tacitly sides with someone who behaves worse than Stefan, just because that person has an argument that could (clumsily and unnecessarily) be used against Stefan.