Author Topic: Please help - Relational ambiguity  (Read 5449 times)

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ZetaMan

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Please help - Relational ambiguity
« on: April 23, 2014, 12:42:20 AM »
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Hey folks. Not the most beloved member here, nor have I paid my dues enough to the community (in my book), but I find myself in a situation where - despite my religious individualism - I need your advice. I can't talk to my friends, my soon-to-be-ex-wife (for obvious reasons), or my mother, and the most grounded people I know are here.

I've been absent because I moved recently to a place without Internet access and await the finances to install it. In the meantime I've been the happiest ever and I've made friends with housemates.. particularly one housemate almost a decade older than me (35+). And I haven't a f*cking clue what's going on. The most confusing thing being that I just retired to bed after spending 16 straight hours in her company. We like to talk art (she's big into that), spirituality, and philosophy. We spent the day riding our bicycles around town having a bizarre day. The original intention was to help motivate her to get her ass out the door and do shopping. We ran into several different people on our day out by chance, two different people mistook us for a couple. One asked if we were, which was followed by 1 second of hesitation and then both of us said "No" in tandem.
We smoke a bit of weed together, over the past 3 weeks I cooked her a dinner and she cooked me one, and I made breakfast twice. Last week we bought coffee on special offer together (which she tore through). Everyone around us can see that this is beyond friendship and that I'm showing interest in her. I even made it plain that I'm fond of her.

Tonight I asked her what she made of the two instances we were mistaken for a couple. She reckoned it was pretty normal to be asked this... I wouldn't know as I don't spend lengths of time with women alone, so maybe she's right. Then a bit later she asked if she gave me "the wrong impression". In my head I was all liek "wut bitch? You're giving everyone the wrong impression!". So I just asked her what the correct impression is supposed to be to begin with... which she couldn't really answer. So I told her I'm attracted to her, hold her in high regard, and care that she gets on well in life. I also let her know that I'm not quite sure myself to begin with as I can't seem to find the line between "female friend" and "lover" anyway, so I don't trust my own impressions.
Ultimately her answer was that "it's too much", which I completely understand as the acting-landlord in the house doesn't like her and she's going through her own shit. So I left it at this: "I'd embrace a relationship with you as much as you'll embrace me. So the ball's in your court".

Please someone help me figure out what the f*ck is going on here? Please!? I'm basically her boyfriend in every respect except I can't show affection for her beyond the odd hug. I can tell she's used to being infantilized by men (being so small and attractive - damn you, Neoteny!) and although she gives (materially and intellectually) what I give her, I feel somewhat cheated. This is a level of intimacy I've only experienced with a lover. Everyone around us is waiting for something to kick off. And I'm pretty sure my soon-to-be-ex-wife would be really f*cking pissed and hurt to find I've gone there with another woman.

Is this an abusive relationship? Does it just need time? Am I so free within myself I'm expecting too much from a 35 yr old infant on welfare?
As I externalize all these thoughts I'm becoming more certain that this is a crock of shit and I'm thinking things out - so I thank you all for the therapy lol
"Suppose they had a gender war, and men showed up"
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Prodigal son

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Re: Please help - Relational ambiguity
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2014, 05:57:32 AM »
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Well it's nice to hear we have another hemp man on the forum. More power to you.
From my limited understanding of what you have written I am assuming you are a young man to the order of around 25 years of age, in which instance you will most likely be strongly inclined to do whatever you damn well want, if I well remember my own proclivity at that age (and thereafter). And so you should.
The only codicil I would add is that there are some spiritual principles at play here, and these must always be complied with or we will suffer the consequences. The main one that comes to my mind is the matter of the woman you are divorcing. Divorce is sometimes a tragic outcome and sometimes a desirable one, and I hope you are in the latter category, but it must not be practiced as it is all too often practiced in Western nations (at least). When a guy marries a woman he is making a commitment of love and care, and that should not cease because of some scrap of lawyer's writings and a rubber stamp or two. Divorce should be conducted, as far as possible, in friendship and collaboration, each considering the feelings and needs of the other. If your actions would be offensive to your soon-to-be ex, then that is an important factor to consider because you retain the duty of care until such time as she chooses a new partner, assuming she does that. I'm not saying that you should not proceed with your new friend and would never presume to do so, but if she is a true soulmate then slowing the pace of things should not dissuade her. If it does, then I think there are grounds to suspect that the relationship was destined to be short-lived or, worse still, unhappy.
I know people sometimes like the frisson of short-lived liaisons, but they are in conflict with God's law, karma, the cosmic vibrations or some such thing (and I'm pretty sure they used to be in conflict with the penal code long ago when our laws were more spiritually oriented) so they exist in a place of suffering and isolation (that may need to be experienced to know it and, inevitably, reject it).
PS
I think the need for sensitivity in divorce proceedings can generally be overriden if either partner produces a suspiciously fresh-faced and wide-eyed new friend, because this is an act of gross offence and indiscretion that can only serve to inflame. In this case the ex partners will be estranged - at least temporarily and perhaps, sadly, permanently.

Everything I have written may be complete bollocks, I'm aware of that. It's what I believe at the moment, but I might change my mind on some details.

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Re: Please help - Relational ambiguity
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2014, 11:30:49 AM »
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Never gone through a divorce, but heard all the warnings about it being a time when people are more vulnerable to making relational mistakes than usual.  I wouldn't rush in with anyone just now, mate.

Proggy suggested taking it very slow, which is good advice under normal circumstances.

You called this woman "a 35 yr old infant on welfare."  This does not sound like you have much respect for her.  I personally would not want to be too close to anyone whom I did not respect.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 11:33:20 AM by Phil »

ZetaMan

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Re: Please help - Relational ambiguity
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2014, 09:24:38 PM »
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First of all folks, anything I say that might come off as a bit blunt and offensive to either of you, I only mean it in a jovial nature... that should really be my signature.

To clarify my age: I am 28 in August.

Phil, you're right on both counts. However, when I called the "woman" an infant I was only speaking bluntly. I was somewhat of an infant until only a few years ago. This is a protracted stage of development inflicted upon our species in most cultures. I have respect for those of soft mind, I'm just aware that there are some things such people can't cope with. Being direct with others is one of these weaknesses. Don't such people deserve nurturing? Especially from those who once required it themselves?

Prodical Son, I was at-first unsure whether to mention my partaking of ceremony on this board. Not because of it's illegality, but because there's a lot of abusive of the plant going on... people are becoming soft-of-mind... or just plain stupid. This is a demographic I don't like to fall into.

Your thoughts on divorce are just and true. In our case, under Irish jurisdiction, we must be separated for 4 of the last 5 years (4 years to go). We still love each other as we know each other very well and have promised each other respect and truthfulness... but other relationships on the side will definitely cause friction and jeopardize that. It's a factor I have on my mind and I'm pacing myself very carefully.
I cannot have a duty to someone who has a different "life guide", however. This is a hole in the theory of marriage when it comes to divorce. I had absolutely no intentions of ending the relationship - it was her that did not take her sworn words seriously. She couldn't stand the heat. I both understand and resent this.


Bringing the conversation back to this woman - I have just had a chat with her as I closed the last paragraph here. I answered her question from last night: "Why is it always the woman who has to ask if she gave the wrong impression?". My initial response was "Yeah. Valid question", but it also bugged the shit out of me. Today I came to the conclusion that the answer is pretty simple: Because these particular women are oblivious to the fact that they're not the only ones giving impressions. She was very disturbed by this and complained how she can't be friends with anyone without them wanting something more. I will now proceed to bitch about how contrary or stupid this woman is to serve as a warning to members of both genders. This isn't just this one woman. This is a pandemic gender disparity. We've heard about women's issues ad infinitum - now let's hear about mens' issues.

This woman has relied on 3 different men (including me) as long as we've known her to secure resources. She spent long long hours with these people, had material wishes granted, and as a result is living above her means. She talks about her financial woes with me... if evolutionary psychology is correct or not, she's fulfilling the female stereotype of talking about issues just to talk about them and not to find a solution OR she's telling me this so my Neoteny will kick in and I'll say "Awh, poor thing, I'll support her material needs". Either is equally subversive.  When the two other men were present in her life she was drinking whiskey every week. I hear reports (from a questionable source) of her having a bottle of whiskey a week she'd tip away at.
I'll mention in conversation a person in my past and (note I only know her 3 weeks now) she said on several occasions "You never told me about X" or "You never told me X was Y". I caught her on a handful of occasions using the word "we" referring to the both of us as an economic and/or social unit... once to myself. When I returned from a day of "errands" in the city she was conveniently heading down the hall, seeing me in the porch she said "I didn't know you were here"... she didn't seem shocked or spooked by my sudden appearance. I passed her in the hall as she was saying "I'm going to make a pot of coffee - do we have any?". I couldn't resist the comical edge of saying "Well, if we don't, we do now", pulling a bag of coffee beans out of my leather jacket. I was willing to be part of the "we" until yesterday.
Apparently, despite the Cold War ending with the fall of the Soviet Union, we still live under Communism where resources under each household are shared "equally" so the female can afford Tréssemé shampoo and whiskey, but you're not allowed to call her your WIFE.

I've now rubber-stamped this relationship as abusive, despite it's surface appearance of being equal. This rubber stamp will remain there until such time as she decides to ask the men in her life she feels oppressed by why they "want more" from her - but as my training in Psychoanalysis and my life experience has taught me, the cows will have well-time exploded, decomposed, and transformed into fossil fuels before that ever happens.

I am Zeta Male - HEAR ME ROAR


The kitchen in our "shared home" (by the wishes of the acting-landlord) has a radio playing at all times. When I initially shared my revelation with the acting-landlord in regards to this woman's question, a song came on when he left the room. It was an Irish folk song, not sung, but moaned, by a female vocalist. The only audible lyrics to me were "...the town where the men drink and smoke, and talk too loud"... I wonder if the vocalist also sings about the men who liberated her town from the jackboot of British colonialization, built the bridges and homes, and protects her, and other women from rapists
I also wandered into the livingroom to talk man-stuff with my comrade, and caught a most of an early episode of Two and a Half Men - the radical MGTOW/Zeta TV show that hasn't been protested off the air by radical feminists only because the male characters in it are as equally despicable as the women it criticizes.

Is the mystical realm trying to tell me something?
"Suppose they had a gender war, and men showed up"
- Paul Elam

Omega

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Re: Please help - Relational ambiguity
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2014, 09:14:54 PM »
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Everyone has different expectations and needs.
You seem to be very possessive and put her on you trophy shelf as your wife, she wants to retain her freedom.

You seem to be quite upset that women are no longer required to sell themselves to some provider man, because they get provided by state.
Would you prefer to force her to become your wife and have some useless leech in your house who just hopes that you will die in some car accident and relieve her from your existence?

I wonder how about sex life in that situation?  I understand that she just want to be friends, but there is no reason why friends cant have sexual relationships.
In your situation I would not ask her questions, but just do what i want slowly observing how far I can push things. She will either start screaming and kick you out or just submit.
Women will never say yes to anything ever if you ask.

ZetaMan

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Re: Please help - Relational ambiguity
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2014, 10:08:49 PM »
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Everyone has different expectations and needs.
You seem to be very possessive and put her on you trophy shelf as your wife, she wants to retain her freedom.

That right there is a big pile of dung, mate. Is that what your girlfriend told you? lol
"Suppose they had a gender war, and men showed up"
- Paul Elam

phlogiston

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Re: Please help - Relational ambiguity
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2014, 03:50:57 AM »
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Only known her 3 weeks and your instincts tell you she is going to live off you? If I hear this right, you already know the answer. "We have coffee" always means 'you'. That is what I am getting. If I am right then you better provide everything because what you can't someone else will for their share of the love.

Seen this over a hundred times. If you get what you want for what you have to provide, go for it. Don't think its love after 3 weeks. Love, in my opinion requires trust. Trust takes time. Trust should be earned and not given. I see no earned trust from what you have stated. I see trust coerced or cajoled.

I only know what you have written so I leave my comments up to you to interpret as to your situation. She may be gold or she may be radioactive. You decide.

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Re: Please help - Relational ambiguity
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2014, 04:46:36 AM »
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Prodical Son, I was at-first unsure whether to mention my partaking of ceremony on this board. Not because of it's illegality, but because there's a lot of abusive of the plant going on... people are becoming soft-of-mind... or just plain stupid. This is a demographic I don't like to fall into.

For sure, but if it were not for the herb they would be sniffing glue, shooting smack or dropping pills, all of which are unhealthy in the extreme. Even if they do destructive things in parallel (and I suppose they do), the fruit of the tree of knowledge activates the pineal gland and tends to raise the level of consciousness, which is why prisons have quietly become such universities of free thinking and "enemies" like the Taliban (hemp men) are far more than they appear at first sight and in media reports, Anyway, sailing a tight ship, however it's rigged, is what any sane person should be doing imo.

I cannot have a duty to someone who has a different "life guide", however. This is a hole in the theory of marriage when it comes to divorce. I had absolutely no intentions of ending the relationship - it was her that did not take her sworn words seriously. She couldn't stand the heat. I both understand and resent this.

We have no disagreement here. I have experienced the same treatment in my life. If a spouse refuses to accept the duties undertaken with the marriage vows then the marriage is de facto null and void and may be discarded, except in the measure we are prevented from acting in this direction due, primarily, to duty towards issue, and then such matters as emotional attachment, kind heartedness and, last but not least, the law.
I spent some time looking into the MRA movement a while back and there is no doubt in my mind that many of its leading lights make extremely valid arguments. The problem I have with it is that it tends to lump women together and assume their behaviors are somehow destructive due to evopsyche or some such phenomenon. These days I don't care for any movement that doesn't reach out to everyone, and while I think the MRA has provided a service by shining a light on a problem that many were loath to address, I think it's also being unhelpful by - in some cases - stirring up enmity between men and women.
When I was a lad the broad push of the feminist movement was just starting out here in the UK and I grew up under many of the illusions it had promoted. However, it was needed at the time. The US was embroiled in Vietnam and Europe had experienced two world wars with unbelievable levels of destruction and carnage. It was hard not to notice the huge preponderance of men in matters of war; I think it's about consciousness... all that stuff about getting in touch with one's feminine side and so forth was perfectly valid. We guys needed to take a look at our value system and the way it was being manipulated to the detriment, mainly but not exclusively, of our brothers in arms. We also needed to re-establish friendship with our sisters, since the formality of family relations had been challenged and many skeletons were wrenched from their closets and given a long-overdue airing and burial. It was a huge change in society, with women being provided with free contraception, promiscuity embraced, and abortions becoming very commonplace. Several spiritual laws were however violated in this period, and, inevitably I think, it all started to spin out of control (like all "movements") as society progressed/changed.
I believe men and women need each other and need to work together, each reserving criticism and striving for the goal of love. It doesn't matter how many predatory or manipulative men or women attempt, with varying degrees of temporary success, to deviate from this course, it is the only true one and the only one that - from my limited perspective - seems worth pursuing.

Omega

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Re: Please help - Relational ambiguity
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2014, 05:53:53 AM »
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Everyone has different expectations and needs.
You seem to be very possessive and put her on you trophy shelf as your wife, she wants to retain her freedom.

That right there is a big pile of dung, mate. Is that what your girlfriend told you? lol

I do not have girlfriend, I just do not care about women and have no desire to support them or make any into any wife. What that woman says to you seems to be perfect for me, but unfortunately where I live, women usually like different things.

Anarchist

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Re: Please help - Relational ambiguity
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2014, 02:59:41 PM »
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I am MGTOW - HEAR MY ROAR
Global male strike begins 3 years ago.

umm.  What happened to this?   :-\
It was an insightful, self-reflective comment that MGTOW just means bitching loudly on the Internet.

ZetaMan

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Re: Please help - Relational ambiguity
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2014, 03:51:13 PM »
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I only know what you have written so I leave my comments up to you to interpret as to your situation. She may be gold or she may be radioactive. You decide.

I'm hearin' ya.
One correction I would make is that trust wasn't cajoled or coerced. It seemed to arise all by itself and was taken for granted as if oxygen to lung.

I am MGTOW - HEAR MY ROAR
Global male strike begins 3 years ago.

umm.  What happened to this?   :-\

That was an attempt by me at weak satirical jab. I'm sorry.

Everyone has different expectations and needs.
You seem to be very possessive and put her on you trophy shelf as your wife, she wants to retain her freedom.

That right there is a big pile of dung, mate. Is that what your girlfriend told you? lol

I do not have girlfriend, I just do not care about women and have no desire to support them or make any into any wife. What that woman says to you seems to be perfect for me, but unfortunately where I live, women usually like different things.

Maybe you should move. As much as we may dislike them at times and bitch about them, women are up there in the most important things in a man's life, if not the most important. Come here and meet this girl, she'll like you. She likes anyone who has a learned mind.

"Suppose they had a gender war, and men showed up"
- Paul Elam

ZetaMan

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Re: Please help - Relational ambiguity
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2014, 04:03:46 PM »
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I believe men and women need each other and need to work together, each reserving criticism and striving for the goal of love. It doesn't matter how many predatory or manipulative men or women attempt, with varying degrees of temporary success, to deviate from this course, it is the only true one and the only one that - from my limited perspective - seems worth pursuing.

I really have to wonder why such an intelligent person thinks that criticism should be buried.
"Suppose they had a gender war, and men showed up"
- Paul Elam

Omega

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Re: Please help - Relational ambiguity
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2014, 04:55:30 PM »
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Maybe you should move. As much as we may dislike them at times and bitch about them, women are up there in the most important things in a man's life, if not the most important. Come here and meet this girl, she'll like you. She likes anyone who has a learned mind.
I do not agree that women have any high importance in men's life. Yes, woman is desirable but not necessary nowadays. It is not like we need anyone to cook or do domestic chores anymore,
so wife is just very expensive pet which has no use.

I would not move just to meet some good woman that defeats whole pupose.
It would be just great for me if I had some single neighbour next door someone like that woman you met, who is just equally not interested in marriage or men like I am not interested.
We could just live like friends help each other and do not fear that one day some prince/princess will come and take away me or her.
10-15 years later, we probably can consider marrying each other because within such time you become family with anyone.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2014, 05:01:10 PM by Omega »

ZetaMan

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Re: Please help - Relational ambiguity
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2014, 10:03:55 PM »
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Maybe you should move. As much as we may dislike them at times and bitch about them, women are up there in the most important things in a man's life, if not the most important. Come here and meet this girl, she'll like you. She likes anyone who has a learned mind.
I do not agree that women have any high importance in men's life. Yes, woman is desirable but not necessary nowadays. It is not like we need anyone to cook or do domestic chores anymore,
so wife is just very expensive pet which has no use.

I would not move just to meet some good woman that defeats whole pupose.
It would be just great for me if I had some single neighbour next door someone like that woman you met, who is just equally not interested in marriage or men like I am not interested.
We could just live like friends help each other and do not fear that one day some prince/princess will come and take away me or her.
10-15 years later, we probably can consider marrying each other because within such time you become family with anyone.

That's a fine scenario. However, I seriously doubt you'd last 10-15 years without wanting to jump her bones. Come on. Let's be real here. Doesn't matter if she's up there with The Elephant Man.
You're also forgetting about hypergamy. You will find yourselves filling roles for each other that correspond to your gender. It will be a relationship. And as soon as a better partnership offer swings by, she's gone. Have no doubt in your mind about this fact. It's not inevitable, but there's always a man out there with more and who can do more.

In my country, if you live under the same roof and pay for resources together, after 7 years you're automatically Common Law couple. I'd say that would be roughly about the time most people would, upon reflection, realise the other person in their life is family, as you put it.

Words of warning:
My 2nd cousin was living with this girl, helping her pay for Medical College and essentially paying the bills. It took her about a week after graduation to dump him. She was in that relationship to improve her own life at the damnation of someone else's.
A friend of mine is dating this beautiful girl. She is absolutely stunning. She moved out of home while with him, then started going to art college. She's dragging him miles further from the city, work, and everything he knows next month to go to the next level of whatever she's pursuing. I can't work out what turns her on to this dude. He smokes a tonne of weed (with her), he works a shit job, seems to do nothing else except play computer games, doesn't inspire her to go outside and enjoy the beginnings of Summer, and has teeth that are starting to look like buttered popcorn. He hasn't made any more effort than her (which is none) to save and plan for this big move - what is the purpose behind this relationship? I'm seriously considering it's because two people are better than one when it comes to responsibility, bills, and general companionship. And particularly when you're doing something on a daily basis that isn't a job and doesn't leave much room for one. I'm going to keep in contact with these two, mainly because I want to see the timing of the relationship's end.

I hate seeming to play this card, but what age are you Omega? There still may be time for your attitude towards the opposite sex in your existential context to change. You can't escape this one unless you're a very special case. They've been with us from the genesis of our existence on Earth... baked into our consciousness.
"Suppose they had a gender war, and men showed up"
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Phil

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Re: Please help - Relational ambiguity
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2014, 11:34:27 PM »
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Words of warning:
My 2nd cousin was living with this girl, helping her pay for Medical College and essentially paying the bills. It took her about a week after graduation to dump him. She was in that relationship to improve her own life at the damnation of someone else's.

This sounds more like predation than a relationship.  Unfortunately, there are people of both sexes who con and exploit other people in various life situations and they need to be identified and avoided.  Not all of them are easy to spot, some being superb actors.