Author Topic: Nation’s leading cult expert says FDR is a closed “cult” environment  (Read 13409 times)

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Kaz

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I think that Therapy is overused as a some kind of cure all, has a shaky foundation and is vastly overestimated over what it can actually do. 

There are plenty of bad therapists out there who are inexperienced in the dynamics of abusive systems and can easily be manipulated by the bullies who have no interest in changing anything. 

Hassan has referred to therapy being able to fix things, yet provided no figures over its actual success rate.   Rogan did a good job refuting him, but he didn't ask this relevant question.  I had the same problem here where claims were made over techniques that can repair relationships without any indication of their success rate in the short and long term and the upside down use of the word "dangerous" to describe getting away from abusive people, when in some cases it can be fatal to stay with them.

Cluster B personality disordered people and addicts are the source of much (but not all) the abuse.  The actual success rate of therapy with cluster B abusive people is extremely poor.  Most of the people who are in therapy are only there because of their relationships with these people, often made worse because they stayed with such people and "tried to make it work."

Anyway, this all has nothing to do with Molyneux's defoo and the interview only muddied this further.

edit: clarification

 
« Last Edit: August 09, 2015, 07:36:28 PM by Kaz »
Just because you have left FDR, it doesn't mean that FDR has left you.

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Disillusioned

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I think that Therapy is overused as a some kind of cure all, has a shaky foundation and is vastly overestimated over what it can actually do. 

There are plenty of bad therapists out there who are inexperienced in the dynamics of abusive systems and can easily be manipulated by the bullies who have no interest in changing anything. 

Hassan has referred to therapy being able to fix things, yet provided no figures over its actual success rate.   Rogan did a good job refuting him, but he didn't ask this relevant question.  I had the same problem here where claims were made over techniques that can repair relationships without any indication of their success rate in the short and long term and the upside down use of the word "dangerous" to describe getting away from abusive people, when in some cases it can be fatal to stay with them.

Cluster B personality disordered people and addicts are the source of much (but not all) the abuse.  The actual success rate of therapy with cluster B abusive people is extremely poor.  Most of the people who are in therapy are only there because of their relationships with these people, often made worse because they stayed with such people and "tried to make it work."

Anyway, this all has nothing to do with Molyneux's defoo and the interview only muddied this further.

edit: clarification


What are your figures? You complain that others are making claims without backing them up and then provide no back up for yours.

I don't agree with Hassan completely about reconnection with abusers, but I respect his expertise and experience.
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CupOTea

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I haven't had a chance to listen to it yet but the Steven Hassan is on the latest Joe Rogan podcast #680.


They discuss several cults before moving on to Molyneux at 1:39:05 http://youtu.be/oQrsGjT0Sn4

Many of the YouTube comments are  pro Molyneux or just plain racist but these were more thoughtful:
Quote from: YouTubeJRE#680Comments

Lemanakmelo
I find this whole episode very informative as a former listener of Stefan Molyneux. I do have one thing to comment about though.  I used to listen to his podcasts a lot, and I listened to almost all of his first 1300 or so podcasts. I haven't listened since last year, shortly before his last episode with Joe, which was what really ended it for me. But I don't think Molyneux does say to flat out cut off from your family. While I was listening, he did constantly say that the best thing to do is to see a therapist, and continue talking with your family and your therapist. He said that you should try to keep your family relationship unless you absolutely felt that you kept trying to communicate with them and they weren't listening. I remember thinking how much easier it would be to  not talk to my family and just cut off ties with them, but I knew that wasn't what he advocated. However, I think maybe early on he was suggesting defooing straight out,, and perhaps after so many podcasts I forget those earlier episodes. And I do definitely remember a lot of conversations where he recommended DeFooing. In the Guardian article, he told the reporter that he had told less than 20 people to DeFOO ever, and I remember at the time thinking that was maybe true, but it sounded like a low number. But I never felt that the message to me was that I should DeFOO. However, during the time I listened, there were other things that built up and bothered me. For one thing, he has a mixed stance on compassion. At times he is very compassionate and understanding to people, or advocates compassion, but at other times he draws a hard line and basically calls people bad or wrong, or tells someone that the person they're talking about is bad or wrong. And in reflection, there were some other things that had bothered me while I was listening, where I should have trusted my gut feeling. For example he does ask for donations, and I never wanted to donate to him, but he did a podcast that was kind of a case for donating to causes you love. But he also throws in comments like  "And, obviously, I think my conversation is the most important in the world, otherwise I would work for someone else". This podcast made me want to donate to OTHER podcasts, I thought it was a pretty reasonable argument, but he had thrown in enough comments to make me feel like if I didn't donate exclusively to him, that I wasn't doing everything in my power to advocate freedom. So I actually donated to another podcast and his, but I felt the need to email him that and tell him that I was donating to two podcasts, and why I felt the other one was also important. Once I cancelled my donations to Stefan Molyneux last year, I felt relieved. It wasn't a large amount, but I realized how ridiculous it was that I felt the need to justify myself to him, and I realized that I should have listened to my initial feelings. (And listening to and trusting your feelnigs is ironically something Stefan advocates) I still donate to the other podcast, which I think is a fantastic podcast with no guilt tripping.
5 hours ago•2

Moon Dial
+Lemanakmelo I also became a viewer before the JRE thing. Probably watched 10-15hrs of his work. Luckily by the time he came onto this podcast I had gone off him to the point where I wanted him shown to be the fraud that he is. Joe did, but could have gone further. There's a darkness inside Molyneux. I don't know what it is exactly, but he's on a vendetta.
2 hours ago (edited)•




Hassan actually started mentioning FDR at 1.07. 
Real men, proper big hairy real men who fight wild animals, naked, in the wilderness, with just a hammer and a copy of UPB, would shout, in their big hairy K-selected manly voices "look at me, I'm K-selected and I'm kicking this bear's ass, and I haven't got any pants on!"   : o )

CupOTea

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God Almighty Christ on a stick, that Steve Hassan doesn't half talk some shit.

1:50:00 approx where they are talking about abused keeping in contact with the abuser - Joe Rogan really had that wanker on the ropes and all I could see was this "therapist" squirming like a little worm.

How on earth did this fella get a licence? Hassan has the sort of mindset that would ultimately get some poor sod killed by their family abuser "because, well, y'now because their family...."

"Hey, like just because you got f*cked six ways from sunday by your Mom/Dad, well y'now that's all in the past and this is the here and now and evil child raping scum can change".

Twat.  >:(

I see where you're coming from. I agree with Rogan that in some cases there is no point in trying to have a relationship with people who abused you. I think it's okay to disagree with Hassan on this issue without completely discrediting him.

Hassan did keep saying that he only recommends people trying to reach out to their abusers with the help of a professional. I think an important part of his point, that might have been missed, was that a lot of people who were severely abused by immediate family still have a desire to have a connection and some kind of relationship with the family member who abused them. Encouraging people like that to totally cut off the possibility of having that relationship, bc some outside authority told you it would be bad, isn't good for anyone.

I don't like the idea that blood is thicker than water. One of the things that appealed to me about what Molyneux says is that there are no special obligations to family. I think that is a cool idea in theory. However, in my experience, no matter how hard I tried to escape it, I do have a special place in my heart for my family. I couldn't easily replace them, and I missed them immensely despite their character flaws and mistakes. I'm not saying everyone does or should feel this way, but I think Hassan is saying it's a reality for most (or at least a lot of) people.

I think it would have been better if they focused on the harm that is caused by deFOOing, specifically, and not get bogged down on what counts as real abuse, and who deserves to be cut off. This argument is a misdirection, bc people who deFOO aren't cutting off one or two people who were severely abusive. DeFOOing is about cutting off everyone in your support network who isn't on-board with Molyneux's ideology. That has nothing to do with beatings and rape and whether or not it's safe to try to fix or rebuild a relationship.

I also am ultimately glad the interview happened, but I would be happier if Hassan did a little more research about Molyneux before talking about him on Rogan's show. Rogan portrayed the donations as small, but I don't think $100/mo. is small for a freaking podcast. And I know he also gets larger sums from some listeners. It would have been good if Hassan could have pushed back on that. And it also would have been better if he didn't talk so much about what abusers do and don't deserve, and talk more about undue influence and isolating yourself from all friends and family.

There's been a few people I know that had such a horrible a abusive parent, that they should never talk to or have anything to do with that parent again.  But in reality the abused child still was in anguish about their relationship with their parent being so screwed up, and they kept trying to connect.  I realize that it speaks to how important those relationships are to most of us.   So Hassan's argument about blood isn't really accurate, since it applies to adoptive kids too.   But family ties are still so primarily important. 

Of course in Molyneux's case, the defoo is all about consolidating his power over his members and cutting out any competition.  Molyneux would lose his devoted followers pretty quickly if they were around people they cared about who had different viewpoints.  It's the isolation that helps Molyneux stay admired by them.  I'm pretty sure that must be his primary motivation. 
Real men, proper big hairy real men who fight wild animals, naked, in the wilderness, with just a hammer and a copy of UPB, would shout, in their big hairy K-selected manly voices "look at me, I'm K-selected and I'm kicking this bear's ass, and I haven't got any pants on!"   : o )

Kaz

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God Almighty Christ on a stick, that Steve Hassan doesn't half talk some shit.

1:50:00 approx where they are talking about abused keeping in contact with the abuser - Joe Rogan really had that wanker on the ropes and all I could see was this "therapist" squirming like a little worm.

How on earth did this fella get a licence? Hassan has the sort of mindset that would ultimately get some poor sod killed by their family abuser "because, well, y'now because their family...."

"Hey, like just because you got f*cked six ways from sunday by your Mom/Dad, well y'now that's all in the past and this is the here and now and evil child raping scum can change".

Twat.  >:(

I see where you're coming from. I agree with Rogan that in some cases there is no point in trying to have a relationship with people who abused you. I think it's okay to disagree with Hassan on this issue without completely discrediting him.

Hassan did keep saying that he only recommends people trying to reach out to their abusers with the help of a professional. I think an important part of his point, that might have been missed, was that a lot of people who were severely abused by immediate family still have a desire to have a connection and some kind of relationship with the family member who abused them. Encouraging people like that to totally cut off the possibility of having that relationship, bc some outside authority told you it would be bad, isn't good for anyone.

I don't like the idea that blood is thicker than water. One of the things that appealed to me about what Molyneux says is that there are no special obligations to family. I think that is a cool idea in theory. However, in my experience, no matter how hard I tried to escape it, I do have a special place in my heart for my family. I couldn't easily replace them, and I missed them immensely despite their character flaws and mistakes. I'm not saying everyone does or should feel this way, but I think Hassan is saying it's a reality for most (or at least a lot of) people.

I think it would have been better if they focused on the harm that is caused by deFOOing, specifically, and not get bogged down on what counts as real abuse, and who deserves to be cut off. This argument is a misdirection, bc people who deFOO aren't cutting off one or two people who were severely abusive. DeFOOing is about cutting off everyone in your support network who isn't on-board with Molyneux's ideology. That has nothing to do with beatings and rape and whether or not it's safe to try to fix or rebuild a relationship.

I also am ultimately glad the interview happened, but I would be happier if Hassan did a little more research about Molyneux before talking about him on Rogan's show. Rogan portrayed the donations as small, but I don't think $100/mo. is small for a freaking podcast. And I know he also gets larger sums from some listeners. It would have been good if Hassan could have pushed back on that. And it also would have been better if he didn't talk so much about what abusers do and don't deserve, and talk more about undue influence and isolating yourself from all friends and family.

There's been a few people I know that had such a horrible a abusive parent, that they should never talk to or have anything to do with that parent again.  But in reality the abused child still was in anguish about their relationship with their parent being so screwed up, and they kept trying to connect.  I realize that it speaks to how important those relationships are to most of us.   So Hassan's argument about blood isn't really accurate, since it applies to adoptive kids too.   But family ties are still so primarily important. 

Yes, this is what makes the abuse of the parental role so devastating to these children and even more tragic is that they often grow up being blamed for their abuse by the rest of the family and friends.

Despite this, many are able to survive and go on to live productively and have good families of their own. 

Of course in Molyneux's case, the defoo is all about consolidating his power over his members and cutting out any competition.  Molyneux would lose his devoted followers pretty quickly if they were around people they cared about who had different viewpoints.  It's the isolation that helps Molyneux stay admired by them.  I'm pretty sure that must be his primary motivation.

Yes, it does work this way.  It is also possible that Molyneux doesn't actually "see" people as separate in their own right and having nothing to do with his own polarised thinking.

Just because you have left FDR, it doesn't mean that FDR has left you.

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Molyneux likes to define defoo to the general public as about leaving abusive families (because people will look bad trying to argue against such a thing as we see demonstrated in this interview), but those who have done more research know it is much more than that.  By getting bogged down with evaluating abusive people at length, Hassan and Rogan are implying that they agree and accept Molyneux’s deceptive definition, and are actually reinforcing it.

The reality is many people have, in the past, left abusive or annoying relationships on their own without any awareness of Molyneux’s existence, or feeling the need to justify it in any way.  The idea that he invented the concept of leaving abusive people, or is some sort of pioneer or expert in this behavior is absurd. 

The idea that ditching annoying people can save the world, cause massive social upheaval and replace political action is absurd too.  However, that concept is the actual Molyneux invention.  Most people do not bring up this distinction.  That’s what the term defoo is about - "saving the world" from destruction by leaving your relationships and donating money.

Take Rogan’s own story for example.  He severed ties with his abusive father.  Did he need to travel in time to call in to Stef's show and consult with him?  Did he need to uncover some secret evil State conspiracy to abuse children, in order to to be able to do it?  Was he a mad genius?  Did his father’s abusiveness prevent his ability to succeed, unless he can figure out UPB?  Did he need to send monthly donations to some self proclaimed philosopher?   Did he do it thinking his actions were a crucial part of a larger plan to save the world from destruction?  No.   Rogan did what any rational person can figure out on their own, in the context of their own situation and the options available to them at that time.   That’s the difference between “leaving an abusive relationship” and a “defoo”.


The meta for defoo is that it is a business opportunity for Molyneux to establish a relationship with his listener as an expert, personal confidant, trusted authority figure, without the credentials, obligation or accountability people traditionally have to take on in order to occupy that role for someone in real life.  It is an opportunity to inject himself as the expert arbiter, into private conflicts of which he knows little about the parties involved, or the situation and context, then disappear them if things don’t work out and they complain.  In the meantime, he pleads for money from them for helping them and others like them.

A better way to steer the conversation about defoo would have been to make a direct comparison.  Since Rogan is in a similar role as host of a show, a public figure and social commentator with influence over listeners but no formal training in psychology, I would have asked Rogan if he would feel comfortable giving such personal advice to his fans should they write or call him about such problems.  Would he be okay with advising them over the phone to make such big decisions while taking on no obligation to deal with the negative consequences that his advice might cause.  Would he be comfortable making public that advice, and the communications?  Would he feel okay directly  asking them for money?  Would he actively solicit and encourage that they seek his advice on such personal matters?

I find the distinction you make, and the comparison with Rogan, very perceptive. It helped me understand how to explain this problem with Molyneux's actions to others. Thank you!
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féanor

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I think that Therapy is overused as a some kind of cure all, has a shaky foundation and is vastly overestimated over what it can actually do. 

There are plenty of bad therapists out there who are inexperienced in the dynamics of abusive systems and can easily be manipulated by the bullies who have no interest in changing anything. 

Yes. Regular, proper exercise (where you really push yourself) and healthy eating (organic veggies, fruits, oily fish) will trump therapy 8 times out of 10.

A preferable "therapist" may well be one's local fitness instructor! They'll give proper nutritional and mind/body tips and guide you in a goal-based fashion.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2015, 11:22:09 AM by féanor »

Elucidated

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I think that Therapy is overused as a some kind of cure all, has a shaky foundation and is vastly overestimated over what it can actually do. 

There are plenty of bad therapists out there who are inexperienced in the dynamics of abusive systems and can easily be manipulated by the bullies who have no interest in changing anything. 

Agree. Also few therapists have any training regarding cults and undue influence. I suspect that people who do seek therapy before defooing have an entirely different conversation with the therapist than they would have had with no FDR / Moly input.

Most therapists would not have an inkling that undue influence / thought reform had brought a client to them. The client turns up saying "my parents were horribly bad, I'm thinking of getting them out of my life" an uninformed therapist is going to take this at face value without getting the full picture.





CupOTea

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I think that Therapy is overused as a some kind of cure all, has a shaky foundation and is vastly overestimated over what it can actually do. 

There are plenty of bad therapists out there who are inexperienced in the dynamics of abusive systems and can easily be manipulated by the bullies who have no interest in changing anything. 

Agree. Also few therapists have any training regarding cults and undue influence. I suspect that people who do seek therapy before defooing have an entirely different conversation with the therapist than they would have had with no FDR / Moly input.

Most therapists would not have an inkling that undue influence / thought reform had brought a client to them. The client turns up saying "my parents were horribly bad, I'm thinking of getting them out of my life" an uninformed therapist is going to take this at face value without getting the full picture.

Exactly.

If the councilor doesn't know anything about undue influence, why wouldn't they just believe the person saying they were abused?  Especially if the person sitting in front of them doesn't look crazy.  And hardly any of them do. 

Very few people are knowledgeable enough to seek out a councilor that's an expert with cults, until it is too late and they become mentally trapped.  On the other side, when they come out, it's more likely but unfortunately they or their loved ones may not understand what happened enough to seek out the right people. 

The good news is there's a big opportunity for employment.  Anyone want to become a therapist for cult victims and their families?  There's a huge need.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2015, 12:51:06 PM by CupOTea »
Real men, proper big hairy real men who fight wild animals, naked, in the wilderness, with just a hammer and a copy of UPB, would shout, in their big hairy K-selected manly voices "look at me, I'm K-selected and I'm kicking this bear's ass, and I haven't got any pants on!"   : o )

Kaz

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I think that Therapy is overused as a some kind of cure all, has a shaky foundation and is vastly overestimated over what it can actually do. 

There are plenty of bad therapists out there who are inexperienced in the dynamics of abusive systems and can easily be manipulated by the bullies who have no interest in changing anything. 

Agree. Also few therapists have any training regarding cults and undue influence. I suspect that people who do seek therapy before defooing have an entirely different conversation with the therapist than they would have had with no FDR / Moly input.

Most therapists would not have an inkling that undue influence / thought reform had brought a client to them. The client turns up saying "my parents were horribly bad, I'm thinking of getting them out of my life" an uninformed therapist is going to take this at face value without getting the full picture.

Exactly.

If the councilor doesn't know anything about undue influence, why wouldn't they just believe the person saying they were abused?  Especially if the person sitting in front of them doesn't look crazy.  And hardly any of them do.


Sadly, often people who have been abused are not believed.  Often by the time they speak out, they have been effectively isolated and ostracised to their friends and family that they often come across as the one with the problem, especially if they are suffering from the effects of being abused and/or PTSD or CPTSD. 

Very few people are knowledgeable enough to seek out a councilor that's an expert with cults, until it is too late and they become mentally trapped.  On the other side, when they come out, it's more likely but unfortunately they or their loved ones may not understand what happened enough to seek out the right people. 

The good news is there's a big opportunity for employment.  Anyone want to become a therapist for cult victims and their families?  There's a huge need.

Unfortunately, this also provides opportunities for people willing to cut corners, bungling rescuing types and in the worst case scenarios also other predators.

Just because you have left FDR, it doesn't mean that FDR has left you.

"Taking responsibility for something and self-blame are horses of two entirely different colors. The former is empowering; the latter is paralyzing." ~ John Rosemond, Ph.D