Author Topic: David Benatar Reminds Me of Molyneux  (Read 541 times)

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Weston Dupree

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David Benatar Reminds Me of Molyneux
« on: June 02, 2018, 04:07:03 PM »
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I spend a lot of time researching people with different types of ideas on the internet. I'd probably say the most peculiar and disturbing philosophy I've come across is David Benatar's philosophy of antinatalism. This is the view that life is bad therefore it's immoral to have a child and abortion and euthanasia should be encouraged. There's also the asymmetry argument which means that you shouldn't have a kid because absence of a bad is good, but the absence of a good isn't bad. Therefore, you shouldn't have a kid no matter how good his/her potential life would be. 

From that it would also follow that people should commit suicide, murder others especially if they're suicidal, and especially murder babies, right? Of course not. Once you already exist you have an interest in seeing how your life will turn out. It's just like if you went to the theater and the play wasn't as good as you thought, but it wasn't terrible. You would stay and see if it gets better.

I'm not here to focus on rebutting antinatalism. There are people who are well trained in discussing philosophy that have rebutted this and pointed out its contradictions far better than I could.

What I wanna focus on are the parallels that I see between David Benatar and Molyneux. When Molyneux used to advocate anarcho-capitalism, there was no room for admitting its flaws. He and his followers were so committed to changing the world through what they saw as a moral philosophy that any criticism of it had to be rejected. Criticism would be a threat to the philosophy that they felt gave their lives meaning. When someone would debate Molyneux, Molyneux had to resort to using lawyer tactics and sophistry. For me, it was always easy to pick up on this which is why I never particularly liked him. However, I respect people who were former members of his cult that found solace on this website.

Not only would Molyneux instantly reject all criticism, but you'd find the youtube commentors saying that the critic was an idiot and getting massive amounts of thumbs up. I think the best example of this was Benatar's debate with Jordan Peterson. Peterson read his book Better To Have Never Been and didn't hold back in the debate. He tried his hardest to crush Benatar's views and I think he succeeded. How did Benatar's supporters respond? They predictably used a lot of ad-hominems, said Peterson didn't understand Benatar's views, said his arguments made no sense, and got angry at him for saying Benatar's views can encourage suicide, murder, and fascism (what would make him think that?). 

Another parallel between the two of them is the way they seem to be perpetual moving targets. When Molyneux would advocate anarcho-capitalism, he would do the best he could to point out the evils of the state and why it's unnecessary. But if someone made an argument for why the state is necessary, he would start talking about how the initiation of force is always wrong so who cares what happens if we get rid of the state? Benatar does something similar. He does the best he can to explain why people aren't happy with their lives. But if you counter that then he switches to his asymmetry argument about how the absence of a bad is good but the absence of a good isn't bad. These are two separate lines of reasoning that should be discussed individually but he often mashes them together. 

Another thing I touched on in the above paragraph was the way both of them assert objective conclusions about moral questions. Saying the initiation of force is always wrong and the absence of a good isn't bad aren't necessarily true. Call me crazy, but I would say they're matters of opinion. A smart person I've read who deals with philosophical and ethical questions is Steven Pinker. Pinker examines well known philosophies, and then synthesizes them with insights from psychology and history to examine what the philosophers got right or wrong. What he doesn't do is dedicate his efforts to promoting one specific philosophy and pushing it on to other people.

This brings me to my next parallel between Molyneux and Benatar. They always talk like salesmen trying to convince other people of their reasoning. I guess this is just part of being an activist. If someone dedicated their lives to saving dolphins, interviews with the person would sound similar. The problem is that animal rights activists are pretty sure that they're right. Even if they get some stuff wrong, how much harm can they do by trying to save animals? I'll concede that, that applied to Molyneux. By being against spanking and promoting anarchy, even if he gets some stuff wrong which he seriously did on spanking, how much harm could he do? But when you tell teenagers to abandon their parents and tell people not to have kids and that life isn't worth living, you better f*cking hope you're not wrong! Compare Molyneux and Benatar to the way that actual smart people promote their ideas such as Steven Pinker, Sam Harris, Tom Woods, Gad Saad, and Jonathan Haidt, etc. I'm not saying they're never opinionated, but often they calmly talk about their ideas that are well researched and backed up by evidence. People like Molyneux, Benatar, and Mark Passio come across like salesmen.

The way Molyneux and Benatar talk brings me to my last point and this may be overly speculative. Their feminine way of speaking could be a hint that both men have suppressed sexual desires for other men. This is a possible motivation for their misanthropy and the pain that they feel that contributes to their behaviors. Maybe they feel they can't get close to others because they won't be accepted and they don't feel fully satisfied with their female relationships. Even if Molyneux isn't attracted to men, he often encourages men to detach from their girlfriends and he has a hyper disgust for promiscuity. Controlling peoples' sex lives is often a common cult tactic. I'm not aware of Benatar's views on sex, other than not having children. Though Sam Harris asked him about people thinking he's depressed and he said that he doesn't talk about his personal life. I think that's very telling. I don't know. Maybe I should've left this paragraph out of this post. Hopefully there's some truth in it.   

Faith

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Re: David Benatar Reminds Me of Molyneux
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2018, 02:30:37 PM »
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Interesting.
I haven't read anything about Benatar, so I can't comment yet on that.
However,  I think that's a very good observation that Molyneux may be a closet homosexual. It's Interesting that the journalist who initially suggested that Stefan may be involved in what happened to me,  claimed exactly that....that he was in the closet. I won't name this journalist , but I think she was banned from the FDR forum.

When I saw that Stefan had actually been writing comments to himself under fake identities and answering them on YouTube, I had to laugh when he pretended to be an attractive young women in one of these fake comment. Lol. Maybe this is his real dream...to be female.


Hierophant

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Re: David Benatar Reminds Me of Molyneux
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2018, 04:02:51 AM »
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Antinatalist here. Hello!

I am not a fan of Benatar as a thinker in general, so you won't get much disagreement from me on that count. But using Pinker as an example of a good thinker, when the data in his books have been shown to be fraudulent? And Sam Harris, a noted misogynist and racist? Seriously? LOL
« Last Edit: June 08, 2018, 04:06:47 AM by Hierophant »

Weston Dupree

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Re: David Benatar Reminds Me of Molyneux
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2018, 04:09:47 AM »
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I have no idea what you're talking about. But I honestly don't care, so you don't need to bother elaborating.

Faith

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Re: David Benatar Reminds Me of Molyneux
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2018, 11:18:10 AM »
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Hi Weston
I tried to reply to this comment a few days ago, but my comment continues to hang in limbo, with the nite that it is awaiting approval by a moderator. I'm not sure what I did wrong, but I did remark in that previous comment that I thought you could be correct about Stefan being in the closet.
I also mentioned that Stefan has been known to (as I'm sure you all are aware) write comments to himself under various fake identities and then answer those fake questions on his show. I found it amusing that he sometimes portrayed himself as an attractive young women in these fake comments....perhaps this is his secret dream? To be a women? Lol.

Kronze21

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Re: David Benatar Reminds Me of Molyneux
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2018, 11:12:46 PM »
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That's insanity to think there are similarities there.  Also If you knew anything about Stef you would know that he still does preach anarcho capitalism.

You don't like him because he's a good debater?? Being good at something is something to respect not dislike.  You mate disagree with an-caps as I do as well but don't hate someone because he's able to argue his point and you can't counter it.

Stef talks feminine and that means he's gay??  Homophobe much??  Jezz!!!  Yes he says to detach from bad gf's not all.


I spend a lot of time researching people with different types of ideas on the internet. I'd probably say the most peculiar and disturbing philosophy I've come across is David Benatar's philosophy of antinatalism. This is the view that life is bad therefore it's immoral to have a child and abortion and euthanasia should be encouraged. There's also the asymmetry argument which means that you shouldn't have a kid because absence of a bad is good, but the absence of a good isn't bad. Therefore, you shouldn't have a kid no matter how good his/her potential life would be. 

From that it would also follow that people should commit suicide, murder others especially if they're suicidal, and especially murder babies, right? Of course not. Once you already exist you have an interest in seeing how your life will turn out. It's just like if you went to the theater and the play wasn't as good as you thought, but it wasn't terrible. You would stay and see if it gets better.

I'm not here to focus on rebutting antinatalism. There are people who are well trained in discussing philosophy that have rebutted this and pointed out its contradictions far better than I could.

What I wanna focus on are the parallels that I see between David Benatar and Molyneux. When Molyneux used to advocate anarcho-capitalism, there was no room for admitting its flaws. He and his followers were so committed to changing the world through what they saw as a moral philosophy that any criticism of it had to be rejected. Criticism would be a threat to the philosophy that they felt gave their lives meaning. When someone would debate Molyneux, Molyneux had to resort to using lawyer tactics and sophistry. For me, it was always easy to pick up on this which is why I never particularly liked him. However, I respect people who were former members of his cult that found solace on this website.

Not only would Molyneux instantly reject all criticism, but you'd find the youtube commentors saying that the critic was an idiot and getting massive amounts of thumbs up. I think the best example of this was Benatar's debate with Jordan Peterson. Peterson read his book Better To Have Never Been and didn't hold back in the debate. He tried his hardest to crush Benatar's views and I think he succeeded. How did Benatar's supporters respond? They predictably used a lot of ad-hominems, said Peterson didn't understand Benatar's views, said his arguments made no sense, and got angry at him for saying Benatar's views can encourage suicide, murder, and fascism (what would make him think that?). 

Another parallel between the two of them is the way they seem to be perpetual moving targets. When Molyneux would advocate anarcho-capitalism, he would do the best he could to point out the evils of the state and why it's unnecessary. But if someone made an argument for why the state is necessary, he would start talking about how the initiation of force is always wrong so who cares what happens if we get rid of the state? Benatar does something similar. He does the best he can to explain why people aren't happy with their lives. But if you counter that then he switches to his asymmetry argument about how the absence of a bad is good but the absence of a good isn't bad. These are two separate lines of reasoning that should be discussed individually but he often mashes them together. 

Another thing I touched on in the above paragraph was the way both of them assert objective conclusions about moral questions. Saying the initiation of force is always wrong and the absence of a good isn't bad aren't necessarily true. Call me crazy, but I would say they're matters of opinion. A smart person I've read who deals with philosophical and ethical questions is Steven Pinker. Pinker examines well known philosophies, and then synthesizes them with insights from psychology and history to examine what the philosophers got right or wrong. What he doesn't do is dedicate his efforts to promoting one specific philosophy and pushing it on to other people.

This brings me to my next parallel between Molyneux and Benatar. They always talk like salesmen trying to convince other people of their reasoning. I guess this is just part of being an activist. If someone dedicated their lives to saving dolphins, interviews with the person would sound similar. The problem is that animal rights activists are pretty sure that they're right. Even if they get some stuff wrong, how much harm can they do by trying to save animals? I'll concede that, that applied to Molyneux. By being against spanking and promoting anarchy, even if he gets some stuff wrong which he seriously did on spanking, how much harm could he do? But when you tell teenagers to abandon their parents and tell people not to have kids and that life isn't worth living, you better f*cking hope you're not wrong! Compare Molyneux and Benatar to the way that actual smart people promote their ideas such as Steven Pinker, Sam Harris, Tom Woods, Gad Saad, and Jonathan Haidt, etc. I'm not saying they're never opinionated, but often they calmly talk about their ideas that are well researched and backed up by evidence. People like Molyneux, Benatar, and Mark Passio come across like salesmen.

The way Molyneux and Benatar talk brings me to my last point and this may be overly speculative. Their feminine way of speaking could be a hint that both men have suppressed sexual desires for other men. This is a possible motivation for their misanthropy and the pain that they feel that contributes to their behaviors. Maybe they feel they can't get close to others because they won't be accepted and they don't feel fully satisfied with their female relationships. Even if Molyneux isn't attracted to men, he often encourages men to detach from their girlfriends and he has a hyper disgust for promiscuity. Controlling peoples' sex lives is often a common cult tactic. I'm not aware of Benatar's views on sex, other than not having children. Though Sam Harris asked him about people thinking he's depressed and he said that he doesn't talk about his personal life. I think that's very telling. I don't know. Maybe I should've left this paragraph out of this post. Hopefully there's some truth in it.   

Weston Dupree

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Re: David Benatar Reminds Me of Molyneux
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2018, 05:13:51 PM »
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Interesting comment. I'll admit, you make a lot of valid rebuttals. The thing is......Whoops! I didn't mean to write this.


What I meant to say was NOT AN ARGUMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Weston Dupree

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Re: David Benatar Reminds Me of Molyneux
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2018, 07:01:39 AM »
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Oh hey Faith. This is my first time seeing your comments on this thread. This may sound ironic considering this long post I wrote, but you're probably better off not researching Benatar and going down the rabbit hole of pessimistic philosophy. I don't get how it makes one's life better to hear about how life in general sucks. I wrote the post because maybe some of the cult watchers on this site might wanna turn an eye towards Benatar and the antinatalist youtubers. Like I said, I just find it all bizarre.

Normally, I wouldn't have speculated about Molyneux being gay, but recently I've been rethinking sexuality a little bit. Most people are of the mind set that most men are straight and a small percentage of them are gay or bisexual. But not much scientific inquiry is really done into this. It may very well be the case that a large percentage of men have homosexual impulses. It's a complicated issue. When I watched Molyneux on the Rubin Report, what came to mind right away was that his mannerisms and way of speaking seem like a gay person. 

There's also the issue of people who have a lot of fans/cult followers taking advantage of this to have sexual partners. With all the young people Molyneux had share intimate details of their lives, it makes you wonder if he had some sort of sexual pleasure from this. There's a reason why psychiatrists have to follow a code of ethics and not talk to their patients on social media. 

Faith

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Re: David Benatar Reminds Me of Molyneux
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2018, 02:05:30 PM »
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My earlier comments on this thread were not approved until recently,  which is why you didn't see them before. It's weird, and I'm not sure why they were not approved by the moderater,  but I thought maybe it was because I said Stefan might be gay.  Haha. Probably that's not it....it must have just been an oversight or something.

I still  haven't read anything by Benetar, and I probably wont, now. Lol. I'm actually not that interested in philosophy as much as I am interested  in what Stefan has actually done that could be considered unethical or strange behaviour.

I recently found the "sister site" to FDR, the site which is about DeFOOing , and I was amazed at what was written there. Stefan's bio there almost seems like satire (his description of himself as the world's greatest philosopher!!) but yet it seems to be a real bio, and not a joke. So bizarre,  if that is correct. 

These are the things that interest me about him, as I'm trying to find anything that suggests he is mentally ill. That may sound cruel and mean, but I really do think that the people who harassed me are connected to Stefan in some way....probably as members or previous members of FDR.

There has been legal action threatened against me by one of these people  (even though I'm the one who has been harassed) and I'm trying to gather any info I can now, in case it may be useful.

I thought it interesting that others also suspected that Stefan may actually be gay, and I think if he were gay but was trying to live a straight lifestyle,  this would  shows he has some mental health issues....that he is too cowardly to live as he really wants to live.

Kronze21

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Re: David Benatar Reminds Me of Molyneux
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2018, 09:01:19 PM »
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😂😂😂😂 neither is stating its not an argument.


Interesting comment. I'll admit, you make a lot of valid rebuttals. The thing is......Whoops! I didn't mean to write this.


What I meant to say was NOT AN ARGUMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Kronze21

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Re: David Benatar Reminds Me of Molyneux
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2018, 09:03:37 PM »
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Wow way to stereotype gay people, you bigot!!😂😂😂

Oh hey Faith. This is my first time seeing your comments on this thread. This may sound ironic considering this long post I wrote, but you're probably better off not researching Benatar and going down the rabbit hole of pessimistic philosophy. I don't get how it makes one's life better to hear about how life in general sucks. I wrote the post because maybe some of the cult watchers on this site might wanna turn an eye towards Benatar and the antinatalist youtubers. Like I said, I just find it all bizarre.

Normally, I wouldn't have speculated about Molyneux being gay, but recently I've been rethinking sexuality a little bit. Most people are of the mind set that most men are straight and a small percentage of them are gay or bisexual. But not much scientific inquiry is really done into this. It may very well be the case that a large percentage of men have homosexual impulses. It's a complicated issue. When I watched Molyneux on the Rubin Report, what came to mind right away was that his mannerisms and way of speaking seem like a gay person. 

There's also the issue of people who have a lot of fans/cult followers taking advantage of this to have sexual partners. With all the young people Molyneux had share intimate details of their lives, it makes you wonder if he had some sort of sexual pleasure from this. There's a reason why psychiatrists have to follow a code of ethics and not talk to their patients on social media.