Author Topic: Anything goes here  (Read 9371 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

QuestEon

  • Just some guy with a blog.
  • Administrator
  • FDR Wizard
  • *****
  • Posts: 860
  • What's your opinion? I'd love to hear it!
  • Respect: +459
    • FDR Liberated
Anything goes here
« on: September 16, 2010, 12:48:57 AM »
0
I wonder how long it will be before someone kicks up a free will vs. determinism debate.  I'm counting the minutes.
It isn't about winning the debate. It's about the truth.

Patience

  • FDR Enlightened
  • ***
  • Posts: 205
  • Respect: +73
Re: Anything goes here
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2012, 02:33:27 PM »
0
You've been counting the minutes since 2010?  Did you do it of your own free will or were you determind?

MartinB

  • FDR Aware
  • **
  • Posts: 58
  • Respect: 0
Re: Anything goes here
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2012, 02:47:36 AM »
0

QuestEon

  • Just some guy with a blog.
  • Administrator
  • FDR Wizard
  • *****
  • Posts: 860
  • What's your opinion? I'd love to hear it!
  • Respect: +459
    • FDR Liberated
Re: Anything goes here
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2012, 03:42:24 PM »
0
You've been counting the minutes since 2010?  Did you do it of your own free will or were you determind?
Ha ha! I "determined" in 2010 that Liberating Minds was going to be reaching the end of its run at some point and Conrad was ready for new horizons. That's when I slapped this forum together and even wrote a couple of posts. I just didn't take it live while LiMi was around because I didn't want to compete.
It isn't about winning the debate. It's about the truth.

futile bread machine

  • FDR Aware
  • **
  • Posts: 76
  • Respect: +1
Re: Anything goes here
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2012, 09:54:49 AM »
0
I'm the 13th member here. A sign of things to come? :s

Anyway, I've never really understood why
Daniel Dennett's view
is ignored on both sides of the debate on FDR..

QuestEon

  • Just some guy with a blog.
  • Administrator
  • FDR Wizard
  • *****
  • Posts: 860
  • What's your opinion? I'd love to hear it!
  • Respect: +459
    • FDR Liberated
Re: Anything goes here
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2012, 06:02:28 PM »
0
I'm the 13th member here. A sign of things to come? :s

Anyway, I've never really understood why Daniel Dennett's view is ignored on both sides of the debate on FDR..


Thanks for the link! Enjoyed that. There are a number one-sided views at FDR. Molyneux officially declared the determinism argument closed at one point. I wonder why he is allowing it to rage on now?

Also, since this thread inexplicably turned into another determinism conversation, I'll add my $0.02:

The best television show based on a determinism premise has got to be Touch, which just premiered in the US starring Kiefer Sutherland. If it stays as good as the pilot was, it will definitely be worth watching.
It isn't about winning the debate. It's about the truth.

Patience

  • FDR Enlightened
  • ***
  • Posts: 205
  • Respect: +73
Re: Anything goes here
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2012, 06:08:16 PM »
0
Also, since this thread inexplicably turned into another determinism conversation, I'll add my $0.02:

The best television show based on a determinism premise has got to be Touch, which just premiered in the US starring Kiefer Sutherland. If it stays as good as the pilot was, it will definitely be worth watching.

Inexplicably?  You're the one who mentioned "free will vs. determinism" in the first post!  It was always going to happen.

MartinB

  • FDR Aware
  • **
  • Posts: 58
  • Respect: 0
Re: Anything goes here
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2012, 08:54:52 PM »
0
I did not comment on the link sufficiently. Basically the question disappears when enough context is considered.

Fact is that the universe is governed by the laws of physics, many (but not all) of them known. There is no special spereate magistrum in the human mind. It is just the same stuff arranged differently. Another fact is that neuroscience finds more and more indicators that humans are not in as much control of their own action as they like to think. The human mind contains piles and piles of systematic bugs (check the Wikipedia page on cognitive biases.).
To some degree we do make up our own minds while also following the laws of physics. (Unlike legal laws these can not even be broken.) But what does Free Will even mean? I did not look into this topic in a while, but I doubt it gets ever thoroughly explained. Free will does not mean to choose randomly from a set of actions. It means to consider the possibilities and chose one we consider useful. Actually allowing others to foresee ones actions is often useful.

So anyway, as often happens in a dispute both sides are wrong. But why not discuss the topic anyway.

Martin

Hajnal

  • Guest
Re: Anything goes here
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2012, 04:57:55 PM »
0
My 2c would be that I am not in control of my body, nor am I being controlled,

but that I am my body.

MartinB

  • FDR Aware
  • **
  • Posts: 58
  • Respect: 0
Re: Anything goes here
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2012, 02:14:10 AM »
0
I'd say you *are* the brain, the rest is just supporting tools.

Martin

futile bread machine

  • FDR Aware
  • **
  • Posts: 76
  • Respect: +1
Re: Anything goes here
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2012, 02:28:28 AM »
0
I would say a mixture of the two. A definition of oneself that is useful in technological terms is that you are the sum of your neural information over time. By technologically useful, I mean in a few decades time when artificial intelligence is greater than our 'biological' intelligence and when you can have back up versions of yourself and so on. The idea of property rights and self ownership might be stretched or challenged then.

Also, some food for thought (well, I am a set of url-links :D)

Hajnal

  • Guest
Re: Anything goes here
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2012, 03:17:08 AM »
0
I would say a mixture of the two. A definition of oneself that is useful in technological terms is that you are the sum of your neural information over time. By technologically useful, I mean in a few decades time when artificial intelligence is greater than our 'biological' intelligence and when you can have back up versions of yourself and so on. The idea of property rights and self ownership might be stretched or challenged then.


Oh boy, fast-forward to 2040. That sounds pretty badass.

BTW, property rights and self-ownership... That sounds like another fun debate! ;)

Property rights, IP, self-ownership: technically, there are none...! At least I would challenge the libertarian conception of them ('come into my house and I'm justified to shoot ya!'). As I was sneaking around LiMi at some undefined point in time ::) I came across NonEntity's post about it. Essentially, we have no rights; we are entitled to nothing.

But property rights, IP, and self-ownership in terms of optional social arrangements or agreements (don't steal from me and I won't steal from you) that depend upon people's desire to get along sounds like a fantastic idea imo. We are a social species after all. It can be easy to forget: we already depend on each other every day to survive. Blows my mind when I think about it.

futile bread machine

  • FDR Aware
  • **
  • Posts: 76
  • Respect: +1
Re: Anything goes here
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2012, 03:52:50 AM »
0
I'm not very educated about rights and 'is-ought' and all the rest of it so forgive me for sounding like Paris Hilton.
Property rights, IP, self-ownership: technically, there are none...! At least I would challenge the libertarian conception of them ('come into my house and I'm justified to shoot ya!'). As I was sneaking around LiMi at some undefined point in time ::) I came across NonEntity's post about it. Essentially, we have no rights; we are entitled to nothing.

But property rights, IP, and self-ownership in terms of optional social arrangements or agreements (don't steal from me and I won't steal from you) that depend upon people's desire to get along sounds like a fantastic idea imo. We are a social species after all. It can be easy to forget: we already depend on each other every day to survive. Blows my mind when I think about it.

Yes what I meant by 'rights' were that they are codes of behavior adopted by people rather than real 'things'. I'd like to see that thread/post that you're talking about.

My original post was about defining the borders of one's 'self' rather than on self ownership or property. On the topic of free will, its important to know what/who's doing the willing.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2012, 08:57:20 AM by futile bread machine »

Hajnal

  • Guest
Re: Anything goes here
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2012, 04:09:29 AM »
0
like Paris Hilton.
lmao ;D

Yes what I meant by 'rights' were that they are codes of behavior adopted by people rather than real 'things'. I'd like to see that thread/post that you're talking about.
I wish I could, but NonEntity deleted his account so it would be difficult to find.

My original post was about defining the borders of one's 'self' rather than on self ownership or property. On the topic of free will, its important to know what/who's doing the willing.

Yeah, but when you mentioned it stretching or challenging property rights and self-ownership I just thought yo...AH'M A gonna challenge that shit right now ;)

Or even what willing is! What is will? I ask because I have no proper concept of what that means, and am therefore skeptical.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2012, 04:12:46 AM by Black Swan »

futile bread machine

  • FDR Aware
  • **
  • Posts: 76
  • Respect: +1
Re: Anything goes here
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2012, 04:39:28 AM »
0
Hmm.. thats a good question and I've never thought of a definition for what 'willing' is. I think Dennett comes pretty close in the link in my first post on this thread (about 2:00 in) when he says something like "An actor/agent with some sensory capacity pursuing its goals". 

Still, I dont feel satisfied with that definition somehow.