Author Topic: Devil in the details  (Read 15403 times)

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TruthAlwaysTold

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Re: Devil in the details
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2012, 05:12:20 PM »
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I have found much comfort and understanding in Christian teachings lately and I have come to be skeptical of the strong atheist position that is currently gaining ascendancy (although many of my friends are atheists - which is fine). Although I don't think of myself as a Christian just yet and perhaps never will, I do hope atheism is not a requirement for participation on these forums.

Yeah the Bible is quite new to me also. One thing is that it requires a lot of historical context and knowledge. Also knowledge about the book itself. The Old Testament is what the Jews believe in. The New Testament is what Christians believe in. The New Testament is considered by most scholars a biography of Jesus. These were written by unknown authors hundreds of years after his death as they decided what to do with it. It was going to be a different sect of Judaism or Judaism itself. They resisted though. Different testaments were written for different audiences. Matthew for the Israeli audience.. that sort of thing.

All original records have been destroyed and there is lot of theories that the New Testament was heavily modified and mistrustful to conform to social reforms. Also, half of the New Testament was written by Paul who never met Jesus or ever saw him. The quotes of Jesus are not his direct quotes at all. But scholars and the Vatican already know all this. Local preachers know very little about the bible. This whole literal bible 'extremism' is literally only 60 years old and stemmed in the US.

To qualify a Christian, you must believe that Jesus was the son of God and that he is God. The Father, Son, And Holy Spirit. I was told on a Christian forum that I did not qualify for being Christian with my viewpoints as I believe he was an observant, Torah abiding Jew. But that's a whole long other story.

Through my research, the Old Testament is the 'truth' of life. The key to success and civilization. The New Testament in my opinion teaches a message which can easily be used to submit to authority. The reason why is because it is used to promote 'idol' worship where you are worshiping a person instead of God himself. The first 2 of the 10 commandments says it very clearly:

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1 - Never have any other god

This clear as day. There are few direct commandments from God in the bible. Most is 'other stuff'. The very first commandment wasn't enough though so He had to clarify himself further:

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2 - Never make your own carved idols or statues that represent any creature in the sky, on the earth, or in the water. Never worship them or serve them, because I, the LORD your God, am a God who does not tolerate rivals. ....[cont.]

Scholars knew that He was trying his best to drive home this point NOT to worship false pagans/idols/false Gods/false prophets (like Stefan Molyneux), so he goes on to make the point that he will punish you. Watch for the drastic wisdom in the punishment below:

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I punish children for their parents' sins to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me. But I show mercy to thousands of generations of those who love me and obey my commandments.

Wow!

Now what would God say if you are praying to an image that an artist image of Jesus? Or maybe under a statue of Marry. The most important of God's commandments is NOT to do it. The NT and Christian church believes that that Jesus was 'the Messiah' his coming essentially voids all of the Old Testament rules and teachings. Thus, a whole new religion is born with a new a message of loving your enemy, tolerance, and not worrying if you sin. It also is able to use 'icons' and 'people' in place of God so you can worship Jesus instead of 'God'. This is a far cry from Judaism and in my opinion.

Also Atheism is really just Secular Humanism. It believes in science to disprove that God exists (which is silly because he's not supposed to). But the problem with believing in 'science' to disprove something, is you also believe in it to *prove* something which then gets twisted into it's own religion. The values of Atheism are simple:

-Humanity needs to follow a single moral code based on the science and rational reason.
-Thus all bad things of this world will go away.

The above is a religion, plain and simple.

Before Atheism it was the Occult and New Age. There has always been a 'science/proof' aspect to all the various forms of paganism - Potions, magic spells, logic, reason etc. It will never end. It just gets re-packaged to keep up with the ages.

When humanity are all under a single moral code, they then become animals. What do you do with animals? You lock them up in cages, farm them, kill them when they're too old, divide up the food amongst them so they get even shares of food. (this is from a Rabbi teaching so I'm not making any of these lessons up).

So Atheists will never look at any other faiths objectively. They can't because it breaks their current faith. The problem is their faith is based on 'science' so it's 'fundamentalist'. This is what makes it extremely dangerous. It's not mystic or based on 'belief' like in past centuries. It's now based on 'facts' and 'absolutes'. There is no arguing science. If they claim it is backed by science, well then it's as good as 1+1=2. No arguing allowed.

If you do, well... you first either get contained, or then.. well you get banned. And in real life, that means death. Just look at the past 100 years alone as we shifted to Secular Humanism and Idol worship. This is religious fundamentalism at work (Secular Humanist and otherwise)..

0bject1ve

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Re: Devil in the details
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2012, 05:13:51 PM »
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The Bible and Torah are, among other things (a fraction of which I find interesting in a purely mythical/metaphorical sense) works of utterly deranged psychopathy.



I don't agree with this statement any longer, although I did when I was in FDR. I don't know anything about the Torah, but I have discovered that the Bible contains (subjectively at least) a wealth of value, although it is - from the little I have discovered lately - a difficult book to understand (and I think Stefan does not understand it at all). I don't pretend that others agree with me and perhaps most people here do not, but I think "utterly deranged psychopathy" is unnecessarily inflammatory.


It certainly may contain a lot of value -- I'm sure lots of people take a lot of positives from it. No arguments there. But it's also teaming with lunacy, surrealism and/or fiction and centuries of post-editing. And there's a lot of calling for death and torture. I can't take it seriously any more than I can Harry Potter (except HP is perhaps more family friendly in the rape/murder/incest departments and ofc is openly fictional).

http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm

(I'm not myself an atheist btw, nor a theist or agnostic.)
« Last Edit: October 31, 2012, 05:15:57 PM by El Dude »

TruthAlwaysTold

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Re: Devil in the details
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2012, 05:19:44 PM »
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(I'm not myself an atheist btw, nor a theist or agnostic.)

Then what are you?

(I'm 99% sure whatever you say in response will be code for 'Secular Humanism').

virginia

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Re: Devil in the details
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2012, 10:39:17 PM »
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The Old Testament is what the Jews believe in. The New Testament is what Christians believe in.

To qualify a Christian, you must believe that Jesus was the son of God and that he is God. The Father, Son, And Holy Spirit. I was told on a Christian forum that I did not qualify for being Christian with my viewpoints as I believe he was an observant, Torah abiding Jew. But that's a whole long other story.

I think Christians follow both the New Testament and the Old Testament.
I think that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is a Catholic thing not necessarily a Christian thing.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

virginia

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Re: Devil in the details
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2012, 10:49:00 PM »
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Also Atheism is really just Secular Humanism. It believes in science to disprove that God exists (which is silly because he's not supposed to). But the problem with believing in 'science' to disprove something, is you also believe in it to *prove* something which then gets twisted into it's own religion. The values of Atheism are simple:
-Humanity needs to follow a single moral code based on the science and rational reason.
-Thus all bad things of this world will go away.

I am an atheist and I don't believe in a single moral code based on science and rational reason. I don't know where you came up with these values of atheism. Atheism is the position that no deities exist. So I don't think that it's a religion or even a belief in science. It seems that you are claiming that all atheists are secular humanists based on... I don't know experience with FDR, I really don't know what you are basing these claims on.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

MutinousMind

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Re: Devil in the details
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2012, 11:20:02 PM »
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Also Atheism is really just Secular Humanism. It believes in science to disprove that God exists (which is silly because he's not supposed to). But the problem with believing in 'science' to disprove something, is you also believe in it to *prove* something which then gets twisted into it's own religion. The values of Atheism are simple:
-Humanity needs to follow a single moral code based on the science and rational reason.
-Thus all bad things of this world will go away.

I am an atheist and I don't believe in a single moral code based on science and rational reason. I don't know where you came up with these values of atheism. Atheism is the position that no deities exist. So I don't think that it's a religion or even a belief in science. It seems that you are claiming that all atheists are secular humanists based on... I don't know experience with FDR, I really don't know what you are basing these claims on.

I'm also an atheist and I agree with Virginia. While some atheists are indeed secular humanists, atheism itself does not specify a philosophy or specific set of behaviors. Also, I don't think we have to disprove anything. Like Virginia said, the only claim we are making is that we don't believe in the existence of deities, and therefore theists are the ones who must prove their fantastic claims.

Hajnal

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Re: Devil in the details
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2012, 09:26:34 AM »
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http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm


And this

Also Atheism is really just Secular Humanism. It believes in science to disprove that God exists (which is silly because he's not supposed to). But the problem with believing in 'science' to disprove something, is you also believe in it to *prove* something which then gets twisted into it's own religion. The values of Atheism are simple:
-Humanity needs to follow a single moral code based on the science and rational reason.
-Thus all bad things of this world will go away.


I am an atheist and I don't believe in a single moral code based on science and rational reason. I don't know where you came up with these values of atheism. Atheism is the position that no deities exist. So I don't think that it's a religion or even a belief in science. It seems that you are claiming that all atheists are secular humanists based on... I don't know experience with FDR, I really don't know what you are basing these claims on.


I'm also an atheist and I agree with Virginia. While some atheists are indeed secular humanists, atheism itself does not specify a philosophy or specific set of behaviors. Also, I don't think we have to disprove anything. Like Virginia said, the only claim we are making is that we don't believe in the existence of deities, and therefore theists are the ones who must prove their fantastic claims.


Agreed. As an atheist and a moral nihilist (or noncognitivist, or amoralist) and a transhumanist, I feel completely misunderstood :D
« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 09:30:31 AM by Black Swan »

megi

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Re: Devil in the details
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2012, 11:16:32 AM »
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Quote from: TAT
Also Atheism is really just Secular Humanism. It believes in science to disprove that God exists (which is silly because he's not supposed to).

No. Not to me. I already mentioned my experience growing up. I don't remember ever being thought about god. Nobody seemed to felt the pressure neither to even mention anything about it, nor to disprove it.

To me it would be same as trying to disprove some fairy tale. It would feel really weird in that sense, and the person would seem out of touch with reality.

Atheism (disbelief in god) can be held as a position for many reasons, by a person. Personally, I've heard/observed in people around me these two the most: not being thought/raised to believe in god, and being frustrated with god's inaction w/ regards to suffering of people.

What do you think "believing in science to disprove that God exists" means in real terms? (what do people do to disprove god through science) I don't think science has anything to do with morality.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 11:18:52 AM by megi »

0bject1ve

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Re: Devil in the details
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2012, 03:20:30 PM »
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(I'm not myself an atheist btw, nor a theist or agnostic.)
Then what are you?
(I'm 99% sure whatever you say in response will be code for 'Secular Humanism').

I'm afraid I don't know what the definition of secular humanism is; would you elaborate?

Since the definitions I've read – and those that I find online – for atheism, theism and agnosticism are all dependent on either proof, belief, or knowledge, and since existence has nothing to do with any of those subjective criteria; I find all three to be unscientific (not rational).

What that makes me I don't know. What label would you like? I just like human being or thinker or something. Perhaps I'm a strict rationalist, since I propose that there is nothing in the universe that cannot be explained and understood by the minds of human beings. Intellect is unlimited in this regard.

0bject1ve

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Re: Devil in the details
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2012, 03:27:22 PM »
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Atheism (disbelief in god) can be held as a position for many reasons, by a person.

the only claim we are making is that we don't believe in the existence of deities, and therefore theists are the ones who must prove their fantastic claims.

Atheism is the position that no deities exist. So I don't think that it's a religion or even a belief

Yes these are very close if not on the money, to the definitions for atheism I find online, and are similar to those posted at academic sites as well. Just in case I was warned to have taken atheists out of context! (Sorry if so.) Also thanks to you three above for posting definitions; to me philosophy (and science generally) is founded upon concise, unambiguous use of language.