Author Topic: Trying to understand the logic of a madman  (Read 3157 times)

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AFreeMan

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Trying to understand the logic of a madman
« on: February 26, 2013, 10:57:41 AM »
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I was watching a video about how a kid defoo from family before he was subscriber to FDR.  If stefan believe that parents are dictotars or evil than why is he a parent. Is going to preach the ideas  to his daughter?Is this so called Good Parenting part of the NAP? If so, I want no part of it.

AFreeMan

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Re: Trying to understand the logic of a madman
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2013, 11:09:34 AM »
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I also want to ask about a video of stefan about " there is no such as mental illness." I cut it off 1/4 of the way. Just want to know you guys thoughts?

Kaz

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Re: Trying to understand the logic of a madman
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2013, 02:59:05 PM »
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I was watching a video about how a kid defoo from family before he was subscriber to FDR.  If stefan believe that parents are dictotars or evil than why is he a parent. Is going to preach the ideas  to his daughter?Is this so called Good Parenting part of the NAP? If so, I want no part of it.


The NAP is just the non aggressive principle, which is the principle of not initiating force against anyone.  It has been around for a long time and Stef did not invent this.  He talks about a lot of libertarian/anarcho-capitalist ideas without giving credit for their origins.

Stefan Molyneux's ideas on parenting are his and his wife's alone.  Before he had his daughter, in 2005 he wrote are people just stupid, more information is here.  He went on to release podcasts and create the FDR forum, where he would ban people who merely disagreed with him.  One of those people was Conrad, who started the now closed liberating minds, which is still up for reading.
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AFreeMan

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Re: Trying to understand the logic of a madman
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2013, 09:37:52 PM »
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Thanks Kaz, very interesting  read. Conard ask a question then instead of stefan answering his question, he talks about something  else just like what Conard mention on the Molyneux debating techniques.   I remember email from Facebook about my problems and my struggle and he never answer back.  I can't believe I email a guy that has no psychology experience about problems.  I read some of the horror story and now I know now what would happen if a madman do to broken minds and hearts, turn them into men and women without chest and more madmen.

Trying to understand why would a people who has no psychology experience tell these people that your parent are evil, that there no such as mental illness and every painful experience is due to childhood trauma is just puzzle and angry me.

Anarchist

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Re: Trying to understand the logic of a madman
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2013, 10:47:42 PM »
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He talks about a lot of libertarian/anarcho-capitalist ideas without giving credit for their origins. .... Stefan Molyneux's ideas on parenting are his and his wife's alone.

Even that sort of thing isn't exclusive to him, which is why, for example, Daniel Mackler came to very similar conclusions as Stefan did, but Daniel didn't originate the idea either. He wrote a book with a New York City psychotherapist who was very influential to him, Frederick Timm, whose website is quite similar to Daniel's, down to the domain name (IRareSoul.com versus YourSacredSelf.com).

I met the man through Daniel Mackler, whom I had asked for recommendations for therapists, and one of the few people he mentioned was Frederick Timm, though he did make sure to emphasize that he only knew the man personally, not as a client, so he couldn't say how effective he would be. This, of course, was ignored by me because, as Stefan points out, good people are mind-readers.

So, I hired Fred as a therapist for a while, and he had the same kind of theory that healing comes from judging your parents in a manner similar to Stefan, which he pushed on me by coming up with theories about my past that didn't really apply to me, which he continued pushing on me even after he had agreed to back off on it. This is saying something, as I still don't want anything to do with my parents due to things they actually did.

Interestingly enough, he directly helped me to leave Stefan and FDR by breaking my illusion of Stefan. If this man was good and didn't think the world of Stefan, that sort of didn't fit with the whole good people are just so in awe of the few other incredibly rare good people they meet theory.

Anyway, Fred was a significant influence on Daniel's current ideas, as Daniel explains:

Quote from: Daniel Mackler
Fred Timm is a close friend and colleague of mine, and one of the most enlightened people I know.  In October of 2006 I was introduced by some members of iraresoul.com’s bulletin board to the theorist and psychology writer Elnora Van Winkle.  I had never heard of her – or so I thought – until I started reading some of her writings, which triggered my memory.
 
This is where it brought me:  Around 2001 I was talking with Fred Timm and he asked me to read some writing on the internet by an old friend of his who had just died, and whom he had spoken about to me for years, but whom I had never met because they had had a falling out.  I knew her only as Ellie.  It turns out she was none other than Elnora Van Winkle!  The coincidence was uncanny, especially since the two people who introduced me to Van Winkle’s work were living in Sweden and Chile (South America), respectively!
 
Or maybe it wasn’t so uncanny.  Ellie introduced Fred to Alice Miller, and Fred basically introduced me to Alice Miller (though I had heard of her before, just not read too much about her), and Fred and I have had countless discussions about Alice Miller over the years.  Interestingly, I shared most of my first critical ideas about Alice Miller with Fred, and he read the first draft of my paper assessing Miller’s limits.  Fred has a brilliantly critical mind, has excellent insight into people, and he is in the process of becoming a therapist as I write – as his life’s third career.  His first career, in the mid-1970s, was as a professional modern dancer, and he toured the world with the Nikolais Dance Company.  His second career, based on his performance skill and his gifts as a playwright, has been as an acting teacher, and as he mentions, he also worked in various capacities at the church in the New York City where he met Ellie.  So in some ways I guess it’s all come full circle.
 
I asked Fred if he would grant me an interview about Ellie, and he agreed.  Also, it’s worth noting that he was completely shocked that people around the world were following her theories more than five years after her death – and he was sure that she would love to know this.  As Fred said, “If there is a heaven, Ellie is watching this all from above and smiling.  I’m sure she loves it that we’re taking her work so seriously, even if we’re being critical of parts of it.”

Of course, the 'uncanniness' of it isn't a feeling you'll get if you understand how small the community of extreme thinkers is. That's what the phrase "It's a small world!" is made for, after all.

Speaking of Elnora van Winkle, she wrote "The toxic mind: confessions of a schizophrenic":

Quote from: Elnora van Winkle
After spending years as a patient in psychiatric hospitals staring at one-way mirrors, I am delighted you have taken the mirrors down and invited us into your conference rooms. I am grateful for this opportunity to tell you my story.

To you who so generously tried to help me when I came to you as a patient, I confess I did not really want your help. In truth I wanted to be mad--not 'mad' mad--but 'angry' mad. When abusive parents force their children to suppress justifiable anger, a toxicosis develops in the brain consisting of noradrenaline, adrenaline, and other neurochemicals that store repressed anger and grief.

The excitatory nervous symptoms of most mental disorders are periodic detoxification crises, which are usually followed by depression (Van Winkle 2000). During these detoxification crises repressed anger--now rage--is released, and because neural pathways are clogged up where memories of early trauma are stored, the rage is often misdirected inward or toward others rather than toward the original abusers. Because neural pathways are askew, thinking becomes distorted and the mind is prone to fantasies, delusions, hallucinations, and psychoses.

The afflicted person is likely to act in bizarre and unintended ways. But the symptoms, which are detoxification crises, are healing events. If the person can be guided to redirect anger toward all past abusers during these symptoms, the mind can heal.

And she says about her career in a short bio at the end:

Quote from: Elnora van Winkle
I am a retired neuroscientist with many research publications in biological psychiatry, all of which support the toxic mind theory. I began my research at the Rockefeller University in 1950, and from 1961 to 1980 was on the staff and faculty at Millhauser Laboratories in the Department of Psychiatry at New York University School of Medicine. Self help measures for recovery: The Biology of Emotions.

That seems to indicate that she had been promoting such theories since 1950.

Hajnal

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Re: Trying to understand the logic of a madman
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2013, 06:27:25 AM »
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Quote from: Elnora van Winkle
After spending years as a patient in psychiatric hospitals staring at one-way mirrors, I am delighted you have taken the mirrors down and invited us into your conference rooms. I am grateful for this opportunity to tell you my story.

To you who so generously tried to help me when I came to you as a patient, I confess I did not really want your help. In truth I wanted to be mad--not 'mad' mad--but 'angry' mad. When abusive parents force their children to suppress justifiable anger, a toxicosis develops in the brain consisting of noradrenaline, adrenaline, and other neurochemicals that store repressed anger and grief.

The excitatory nervous symptoms of most mental disorders are periodic detoxification crises, which are usually followed by depression (Van Winkle 2000). During these detoxification crises repressed anger--now rage--is released, and because neural pathways are clogged up where memories of early trauma are stored, the rage is often misdirected inward or toward others rather than toward the original abusers. Because neural pathways are askew, thinking becomes distorted and the mind is prone to fantasies, delusions, hallucinations, and psychoses.

The afflicted person is likely to act in bizarre and unintended ways. But the symptoms, which are detoxification crises, are healing events. If the person can be guided to redirect anger toward all past abusers during these symptoms, the mind can heal.
And she says about her career in a short bio at the end:

Quote from: Elnora van Winkle
I am a retired neuroscientist with many research publications in biological psychiatry, all of which support the toxic mind theory. I began my research at the Rockefeller University in 1950, and from 1961 to 1980 was on the staff and faculty at Millhauser Laboratories in the Department of Psychiatry at New York University School of Medicine. Self help measures for recovery: The Biology of Emotions.
That seems to indicate that she had been promoting such theories since 1950.

Wow. She sounds like she knows what she's talking about, but I'm skeptical and wondering about the actual quality of her research.

Hajnal

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Re: Trying to understand the logic of a madman
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2013, 06:40:18 AM »
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I was watching a video about how a kid defoo from family before he was subscriber to FDR.  If stefan believe that parents are dictotars or evil than why is he a parent. Is going to preach the ideas  to his daughter?Is this so called Good Parenting part of the NAP? If so, I want no part of it.

Stefan (and Daniel Mackler) believe that there aren't any good parents out there, and if there are, that they must be very rare. They don't consider parents = bad, but they think that most if not all parents are not any good at parenting.

They put really high or impossible standards for what count as "good parenting" and find it really easy to point out and criticize "bad" or often "horrible" parenting.

People make mistakes, but basically they think if you're not a perfect parent then you're a really "bad" one. In his world, mistakes are not allowed.

The worst part is that he doesn't live up to his own standards, but he won't admit his mistakes.

I think that the logic of this madness is perfectionism.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2013, 06:43:23 AM by Black Swan »

Kaz

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Re: Trying to understand the logic of a madman
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2013, 10:32:16 PM »
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I'm glad you posted Anarchist.  My language was sloppy, what I was attempting to say was that ideas about defooing have nothing to do with anarcho capitalism or libertarianism, only Stefan Molyneux and his wife bring that to the party.

Just because you have left FDR, it doesn't mean that FDR has left you.

"Taking responsibility for something and self-blame are horses of two entirely different colors. The former is empowering; the latter is paralyzing." ~ John Rosemond, Ph.D