Author Topic: But Feminists ARE Socialists with panties!  (Read 63403 times)

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Kaz

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Re: But Feminists ARE Socialists with panties!
« Reply #75 on: June 08, 2014, 09:27:46 PM »
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Please take the time, when you have it, to absorb the thoughts of educated and experienced people (e.g. Paul Elam, Dr. Warren Farrell, & Tara Palmatier) from the MRA perspective on gender parity.

You assume that we have never heard of these people.  I have not studied Dr. Farrell's work, am familiar with Paul Elam and have read Dr. Tara Palmatier extensively.  In fact I am an advocate in a similar area that Dr. Palmatier works in.

You really do not do your cause justice by the way you have behaved in this thread, sir.

Just because you have left FDR, it doesn't mean that FDR has left you.

"Taking responsibility for something and self-blame are horses of two entirely different colors. The former is empowering; the latter is paralyzing." ~ John Rosemond, Ph.D

eternal bias

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Re: But Feminists ARE Socialists with panties!
« Reply #76 on: June 08, 2014, 09:44:31 PM »
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@eternal bias: That post is too long, I won't read it.

LINKS:
**read this first:
http://feminspire.com/feminism-its-good-for-men-too/
http://www.davkadeergirl.com/2008/03/cosmic-titty-archetype_07.html
http://quiteirregular.wordpress.com/2014/05/08/she-can-always-tell-me-to-stop-sexual-assault-and-just-trying-something-new/
**Bookmark these and read later:
http://time.com/2796068/two-sisters-raped-and-hanged-from-a-tree-in-india/
http://souciant.com/2014/06/the-gender-syndrome/
http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-uncomfortable-truths-behind-mens-rights-movement/
http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/175850/tomgram%3A_rebecca_solnit%2C_%23yesallwomen_changes_the_story/
http://www.reddit.com/r/feminisms/comments/26wic2/exactly_why_it_happens_to_men_too_doesnt_apply_to/
http://www.reddit.com/r/feminisms/comments/27hlt6/gender_nonconformance_vs_feminism/
http://www.motherjones.com/media/2014/06/street-harassment-survey-america
http://quiteirregular.wordpress.com/2014/05/22/feminism-and-not-hating-men/
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2014/05/the-pay-gap-the-chicken-and-the-egg.html
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1608463869/ref=nosim/?tag=tomdispatch-20
http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/175846/tomgram%3A_rebecca_solnit%2C_the_new_feminist_road_map/
http://www.reddit.com/r/feminisms/comments/264nzu/the_new_feminist_road_map_feminism_is_an_endeavor/


I apologize if citing my sources has offended you in any way.  They were really only there so everyone knew I wasn't making stuff up.  I didn't actually expect everyone to read the citations thoroughly however like most papers they are just there as a reference for the convenience of a curios reader who wanted to verify what I was saying.  Anything I felt was important I summarized and quoted in my post, again for the convenience of the reader.

On the other hand it seems you've just posted a bunch of random links without attempting to summarize them or offer any commentary at all.  While I'm sure they all have a lot to say, without some running commentary or quotations I have no idea where to start. 

As for your concern about the length of my post, I suppose I can sum up my views in a sentence so it is easy to digest:

Feminism has transformed from a fairly reasonable movement into a witch hunt, and MRAs are only alleged witches trying to avoid being burned at the metaphorical stake.

If you want to know 'why' I believe this I suppose I'll have to point you back to my original post.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2014, 09:46:52 PM by eternal bias »

ZetaMan

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Re: But Feminists ARE Socialists with panties!
« Reply #77 on: June 08, 2014, 09:46:43 PM »
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You can tell me that this is marginal. Just a few freaks out there. First of all, I wouldn't believe you. Regardless of whether it's true or not, we wouldn't accept this kind of talk about women or black people (as demonstrated in the last image). Freedom of speech seems to apply a whole lot more to women than... I was going to say anyone else, but everyone else just happens to be male.





"Suppose they had a gender war, and men showed up"
- Paul Elam

ZetaMan

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Re: But Feminists ARE Socialists with panties!
« Reply #78 on: June 08, 2014, 09:51:35 PM »
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About the equality/parity stuff, I wonder if MRA thinks about this:

In a theoretical world where we have done everything possible to give women every opportunity men have, men won't have every opportunity women have. Because if a woman wants a kid, she just needs to find some sperm. If a man wants a kid, there is a much more involved process to go through, involving find a mate and either staying with her, or fighting it out in court. (I'm generalizing--there are of course other, more difficult options.)

I could see this leading to an unresolvable resentment, and I don't know what to do about it. (Not that single-parent families are all that great, due to the time-consuming nature of parenting.)

These are the questions that the MRA and MGTOW movements deliberate over collectively and personally every day.

You assume that we have never heard of these people.

Who's this "we"? I don't ever remember talking to you. The narcissism in that!

Why are you being such a shit head?
"Suppose they had a gender war, and men showed up"
- Paul Elam

Kaz

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Re: But Feminists ARE Socialists with panties!
« Reply #79 on: June 08, 2014, 10:10:05 PM »
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You assume that we have never heard of these people.

Who's this "we"? I don't ever remember talking to you. The narcissism in that!

Why are you being such a shit head?

This thread is an open thread for anyone to participate in and you do not own this forum.  Your memory is inaccurate and you are conflating your right to speak your mind with verbal abuse. 

Your post says a lot more about you than it does about me.

Just because you have left FDR, it doesn't mean that FDR has left you.

"Taking responsibility for something and self-blame are horses of two entirely different colors. The former is empowering; the latter is paralyzing." ~ John Rosemond, Ph.D

ZetaMan

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Re: But Feminists ARE Socialists with panties!
« Reply #80 on: June 08, 2014, 10:34:27 PM »
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Nope. I'm pretty certain you took a statement directed to another individual and assumed it was directed to you. You did this simply to pick a fight.

"Suppose they had a gender war, and men showed up"
- Paul Elam

Argent

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Re: But Feminists ARE Socialists with panties!
« Reply #81 on: June 08, 2014, 11:47:09 PM »
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These are the questions that the MRA and MGTOW movements deliberate over collectively and personally every day.

On the other hand, guy hormones typically provide easier capacity for strength and athletic endurance. These are hugely valuable personal assets that can't even be sued for. I'm constantly awed by how easy athletic performance comes to my guy friends--I have to really work for it. It doesn't make me hate guys though; we have different strengths and weaknesses, and neither sex's physicality stole anything from the other. (Unless you believe the biblical claim that Eve took one of Adam's ribs! Also, estrogen in the water supply--totally awful though apparently not primarily due to the pill.)

Lee Li

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Re: But Feminists ARE Socialists with panties!
« Reply #82 on: June 09, 2014, 12:06:33 AM »
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Eternal Bias, I'm not offended, I was just saying that's too much info for me to absorb here, so I won't respond. It would also be way too much to comment on. That is all.

The links were not directed at you: I wanted to share them in general and as part of the debate to establish what feminists actually say and write about, as part of my ongoing debate with Zetaman. I felt the need to paste actual links because I was constantly getting strawmanned. I put them at the bottom because it made formatting sense.

Also it would be too much work to comment on it all because I'm typing on my phone. Composing posts is horrible. And I had to swipe so many times to scroll down that it was driving me batty. Not your fault. Sorry if you felt singled out. Again, I wasn't making you personally read all those links: they were just available.

Just clarifying :)
« Last Edit: June 09, 2014, 12:35:22 AM by Lee Li »
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Lee Li

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Re: But Feminists ARE Socialists with panties!
« Reply #83 on: June 09, 2014, 12:19:17 AM »
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Zetaman, just as there are ignorant assholes ruining the egalitarianism of feminism, wouldn't you also agree that MRA groups have their own as well? What use is it when no one is able to police the definition of feminism or men's-rights-activism, so anyone can call themselves that? What would be the solution?
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Omega

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Re: But Feminists ARE Socialists with panties!
« Reply #84 on: June 09, 2014, 07:52:57 AM »
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Zetaman, just as there are ignorant assholes ruining the egalitarianism of feminism, wouldn't you also agree that MRA groups have their own as well? What use is it when no one is able to police the definition of feminism or men's-rights-activism, so anyone can call themselves that? What would be the solution?

Again You are compoletely out of topic.
We do not discuss MRA here. and it is entirely possible that MRA has their own assholes, but Entire existence of MRA is justified as counterbalance to feminism.
Ideally there should be no MRA or feminism, because if you are about equality your movement title cannot be gender specific.

Your claims that feminism is about egalitarianism is just exactly ridiculous as saying that white supremacists are interested in equality of all races.

If you make group specific title you immediately declare that you will pursue interests of that specific group against interests of everyone else.

And you still did not answered question why do you call yourself feminist if you are not fighting for women rights but for rights of everyone?

ZetaMan

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Re: But Feminists ARE Socialists with panties!
« Reply #85 on: June 09, 2014, 08:43:55 AM »
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Lee Li: Find me these assholes in the MRA, because I get the feeling like you're trying to put us down a few pegs to save face.

The MRA has considerably less bigots and sexists in it than Feminism. How can I say that? I can say that because every woman and her dog will identify as a Femenist, and a great deal of women harbour hostility towards men.
Men, on the other-hand, love women. That's what breaks our hearts. Even when we turn MGTOW, we gather together on open platforms like Youtube and sob at the collective nastiness that oozes out of women these days.

Please address what Omega is contributing to this thread or I cannot take you seriously anymore.
"Suppose they had a gender war, and men showed up"
- Paul Elam

ZetaMan

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Re: But Feminists ARE Socialists with panties!
« Reply #86 on: June 09, 2014, 09:15:06 AM »
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These are the questions that the MRA and MGTOW movements deliberate over collectively and personally every day.

On the other hand, guy hormones typically provide easier capacity for strength and athletic endurance. These are hugely valuable personal assets that can't even be sued for. I'm constantly awed by how easy athletic performance comes to my guy friends--I have to really work for it. It doesn't make me hate guys though; we have different strengths and weaknesses, and neither sex's physicality stole anything from the other. (Unless you believe the biblical claim that Eve took one of Adam's ribs! Also, estrogen in the water supply--totally awful though apparently not primarily due to the pill.)


Things like this is why a lot of people within the MRA answers Feminism's cry for equality with "No! Parity of Esteem! Co-Operation!". By no stretch are men and women the exact same + social constructs. No matter how much I try, I cannot see a woman hanging off the back of a garbage truck, sneaking through a jungle like Rambo (with exceptions), or guiding a steel girder suspended by a crane while balancing 100 storeys above the ground. Just like I'm sure you couldn't imagine me pulling off what you can, specific to your gender. I know I wouldn't be able to carry a child in my gut for 9 months without forgetting it's there and seriously injuring it.
Equality is out of the question, traditionalism (a la Abrahamic values) is out of the question - we need to come to a new arrangement as we exist in a level of civilization never seen by our species before.

In my marriage we are both very happy (except for a few compatibility issues). We just exist together. It helps that we aren't able to have children.
As it stands now, she's unemployed; I'm self-employed; we're building a business and do radio shows together. She cooks, I wash dishes and clean as I am the most neurotic when it comes to cleanliness. It is up to her to clean more intensive things like windowsils. I take out the "garbage" and wheel the bins out to be collected. I carry all the weight while shopping, and she carries some on the journey home. We both go to our allotment and tend to our fruit, veg, and herbs. She has time to do what she likes best: read and research subjects that interest her. I have time for what I like best: building websites, researching new artists/music for our show, and the odd computer game and ranting on forums.
We adopted a double-barrel Surname. I don't see why she aught to take my name, and I love both mine and hers, as does she. It's important we share a Surname as, if war broke out or one of us was hospitalised or whathaveyou, then there wouldn't be any confusion Re: who belongs to who.

Sadly this paradise was destroyed by a family emergency that sent her back to the States :(

But this is how we deal with our differences, and neither of us feel "oppressed". Right now she's oppressed because she's got a 3rd level education in New York with no prospects. She's NOTHING to this world. She's as useless as a common bum where she is. But she experienced true value while living with me.
"Suppose they had a gender war, and men showed up"
- Paul Elam

ZetaMan

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Re: But Feminists ARE Socialists with panties!
« Reply #87 on: June 09, 2014, 02:24:04 PM »
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I couldn't give a toss about your "Arthur" or having credibility in some kind of cultish clique.
What is this, 1992?
"Suppose they had a gender war, and men showed up"
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Lee Li

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Re: But Feminists ARE Socialists with panties!
« Reply #88 on: June 09, 2014, 04:59:45 PM »
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Zetaman, I think scrampi was joking
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Lee Li

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Re: But Feminists ARE Socialists with panties!
« Reply #89 on: June 09, 2014, 05:02:36 PM »
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If I wanted to save face, I would have tried harder than that. I want to establish a common ground, so we can then talk about how to achieve our common goal. If we want the same outcome, then there is no sense in shit talking. I think it would in fact be respectable and intellectually honest to admit the faults in our movements so we can fix them. No movement or group of people is without its faults or people afflicted by delusions (or, another way of putting it: destructive memes). If you only point out the "feminists" who are actually misandrists (by definition!) while saying MRA is pure as a lamb and free from any misogynists, then that is splitting, and splitting leads to unclear, irrational, inaccurate thinking. I would like us to rise above tribalism, because there is far more at stake than who gets to look better, and those things are the reason I'm sure each person joined these movements.

Quote from: Zetaman
I can say that because every woman and her dog will identify as a Feminist, and a great deal of women harbour hostility towards men. Men, on the other-hand, love women.​

Actually, men as a class of people don't simply "love women". Really, it can and does go both ways. Men and women have their resentments, and they have their reasons. It would be interesting to talk about why, and people do analyze that. But that is not what you are doing by bringing this up (it would be tangential anyway). It makes no sense to use people's emotional states to discredit and credit them.

What those people do with their feelings is what counts. For example, it is obviously f*cked up to tweet #killallmen. But to use a very similar Twitter event, it is a constructive thing to tweet #YesAllWomen in response to a misogyny-fueled killing-spree, to open a dialogue about the fear, harassment, and abuse women experience.

I need to emphasize that feminism is a movement that is, by definition, egalitarian. Feminism != misandry. People waving the banner of feminism while rallying for misandry are wrong. Anyone can call themselves whatever they want, but history sets a precedent for what feminism (or any other politics) is. Anyone who is ignorant or misinformed of what it is, is ignorant of the history.

I have a follow-up post coming, where I will address Omega's points (and possibly others, depending on time and energy).
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