Author Topic: Values: What I Believe (As a Typical Feminist)  (Read 24127 times)

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Lee Li

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Re: Values: What I Believe (As a Typical Feminist)
« Reply #105 on: July 03, 2014, 07:09:40 PM »
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On Threats
[TW: Threats; Harassment; Apologism; Sexual Assault]

I pulled this from the neverending-comment-thread because I think it deserves highlighting for purposes of making a larger point. Commenter EDB5fold aptly noted:

    For a frightening number of people (mostly men, who are more often than women socialized to respond to things they don't like with violence), identifying yourself as a feminist, or saying something that's ideologically in line with some part of feminism, is considered sufficient grounds for threatening your life. I won't separate some amorphous public concept of feminism from the lived realities of feminists.



To which I responded:

    I'm very glad you brought this up because it is so common, so much a part of our lives, that I think it often gets overlooked. Rape/death threats are a fact of life for most feminist bloggers, especially high-traffic bloggers. I have received them in comment threads and via email, and nearly every feminist blogger I read has received them.

    From what I have seen, this is not a phenomenon that MRAs experience, at least to the degree that feminists do. That, I think, underscores a lot of the male aggression entitlement issues that I have been talking about. The status quo in a rape culture is male violence against women.

    Catherine Mackinnon has written, to paraphrase, that some wrongs are so common they are sometimes thought of as too common to be atrocious. And likewise, some wrongs are so atrocious they are assumed to be uncommon.

    I guess I'm reminded of how sucky it is that rape/death threats are so casually treated by mainstream society as Just An Expected Part of Feminist Blogging. Maybe it's our just deserts for "hating men"?

    [TW: Suicide, threats]

    Indeed, when I first started blogging, an anti-feminist man sent me a few incredibly creepy emails encouraging me to commit suicide and outlining various ways I could do it. When I mentioned that at an anti-feminist, anti-gay blog, a commenter noted, 'Well, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar,' implying that I brought the threats upon myself.



Let's talk about this.

I am of course speaking from my own experience and from what I see as both a writer and reader of many feminist blogs and as a reader of MRA/anti-feminist/non-feminist blogs, but it's not often that I hear of feminists making veiled threats to MRA bloggers where we fantasize about them getting "rape[d] in the dead of night."

Indeed, I'm just not seeing large numbers of feminists going to MRA and other anti-feminist sites and celebrating, encouraging, and joking about sexual assault and violence against male and anti-feminist bloggers.

Many feminists would rightly be appalled at and condemn that sort of violent speech.

Yet, when people do it to feminist, such threats are so expected that it's often treated as unremarkable. That is the status quo.

What's the reason for this? Well, what does a feminist expect if she's going to espouse "man-hating" views, right?

If we think of some of the stereotypes of feminists, it becomes apparent that these caricatures exist not only to minimize feminist arguments, but to silence us and further justify the status quo of male violence against women. They perpetuate a culture where it's okay for some types of people to violate another type of people's boundaries.

Framing feminists as loud-mouthed screechy man-hating c*nts, and that is indeed how we are widely framed in non-feminist circles, makes it easier for people to believe that we are somehow responsible for real or threatened acts of violence against us. Even if people condemn theats against feminists, many of them still say, well, honey + vinegar, remember ladies? Better watch your tone and make sure you are sufficiently non-offensive to hyper-defensive men who are, themselves, quite okay with aggression as long as they're the ones dishing it out.

Yet, what I've come to learn over the years is that while men are expected, encouraged, and entitled to be aggressive and angry and foaming at the mouth about anything from politics to traffic to football games, no political argument coming from a female feminist will ever be deemed sufficiently pleasant, accomodating, smiley, giggly, or civil enough if it's an argument against rape culture, patriarchy, or misogyny. Usually what happens is that criticisms of these wrongs are deemed much worse than the object of the feminist criticism.

And if, goddess forbid, a feminist actually shows anger, the non/anti-feminist will exaggerate it so it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy that's ultimately used to discredit hir.

It is no coincidence that these stereotypes about what feminists are like, and how responsible we are for threats and violence against us also parallel rape apologist narratives like "what was she doing drinking so much, anyway?"

Both preserve the status quo of "victim" being viewed as just an essential characteristic of women. Both preserve the status quo that some people's boundaries don't matter.

The feminist starting point is that our arguments are met with threats of violence from those along the political spectrum. The non/anti-feminist and MRA position is not, which underscorse the perversity of MRAs so often leeching the language of feminist equality to advance their so-often-resoundingly-anti-feminist agenda.

Accepting the proposition that feminism and non/anti-feminism are just two different-but-equally-legitimate ways of seeing things means accepting the propostion that pervasive violence and threats against women are just as legitimate as non-violence against women and respecting our boundaries.

"There is no neutral in rape culture."

Non-feminism is anti-feminism.
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MikeTO

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Re: Values: What I Believe (As a Typical Feminist)
« Reply #106 on: July 04, 2014, 08:25:15 AM »
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Actually there was a letter from the double tree hotel claiming they were receiving death threats.  Nice going try to lie about things.  I really don't know.  It's funny because I was attacked with a woman with a knife just over a decade ago.  She was trying to rob me at knife point but I didn't hit her until she tried to stab another one who tried to help me.


Look at this, these women don't look scared at all.  Far from it in fact, it just proves a lot of feminist are bunch of hot hair.  :P

www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7FmsNiqX2s


This is video proof of feminist violence, not claimed to be violent.  HUGE difference because people can lie but video footage can't lie.

Lee Li

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Re: Values: What I Believe (As a Typical Feminist)
« Reply #107 on: July 04, 2014, 02:23:35 PM »
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The accusations AVFM made about receiving death threats from 'feminists' is full of holes. There is not enough evidence to conclude it. Some people even think it's a hoax.

Let me watch that video brb.
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Lee Li

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Re: Values: What I Believe (As a Typical Feminist)
« Reply #108 on: July 04, 2014, 04:58:55 PM »
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Lololol that video. That's proof that feminists are violent? This is a typical protest. Look they're angry, sometimes they shout. Oooh scary. So violence! Lol
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Elucidated

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Re: Values: What I Believe (As a Typical Feminist)
« Reply #109 on: July 09, 2014, 06:42:21 PM »
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I do not cry for anything I cant change fact that women are mostly whores who only engage in sexual activities to get paid in some way (according to your statement you agree to that) it does not matter if payment is love or money it is still payment
All i can do is to say to all those whore go and f*ck yourself because I will not pay you anything.

Why does any body even respond to this guy?

Various comments in this thread talk about 'feminists' and feminist views, (typical feminists, radical feminists etc). I can identify with feminsts or not as I please, and people can define the term in various ways which I may or may not agree with, but I AM a woman with no choice in the matter, and when someone talks this way about 'most women', as a woman I take it personally and I make no apologies about that.  I find Omega's hate filled views and his manner of expressing them sickening.

Others who are posting with 'anti-feminist' views, for want of a better description, are managing to do so without being offensive in the extreme. In answer to a question posed in another thread 'Is FDRLib becoming a hate site?' I would say that YES, unfortunately it is, but not in the way the OP meant.




Omega

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Re: Values: What I Believe (As a Typical Feminist)
« Reply #110 on: July 09, 2014, 09:29:16 PM »
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I do not cry for anything I cant change fact that women are mostly whores who only engage in sexual activities to get paid in some way (according to your statement you agree to that) it does not matter if payment is love or money it is still payment
All i can do is to say to all those whore go and f*ck yourself because I will not pay you anything.

Why does any body even respond to this guy?

Various comments in this thread talk about 'feminists' and feminist views, (typical feminists, radical feminists etc). I can identify with feminsts or not as I please, and people can define the term in various ways which I may or may not agree with, but I AM a woman with no choice in the matter, and when someone talks this way about 'most women', as a woman I take it personally and I make no apologies about that.  I find Omega's hate filled views and his manner of expressing them sickening.

Others who are posting with 'anti-feminist' views, for want of a better description, are managing to do so without being offensive in the extreme. In answer to a question posed in another thread 'Is FDRLib becoming a hate site?' I would say that YES, unfortunately it is, but not in the way the OP meant.

I think it should be against the rules to do personal attacks or I am wrong?
None of my posts contain any call to violence or hate or any form or enforcing my views on someone else. I have full rights to love and hate whomever I want. And I could not care less if you feel sickened or aroused or whatever else.


Quote
I can identify with feminsts or not as I please, and people can define the term in various ways which I may or may not agree with, but I AM a woman with no choice in the matter,
Yes you do have choice, you do not need to identify yourself as woman. You can identify yourself as whomever you like.

Lee Li

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Re: Values: What I Believe (As a Typical Feminist)
« Reply #111 on: July 10, 2014, 04:12:26 AM »
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Elucidated - sometimes the disease of a culture is exposed by focusing on its worst manifestations, which are generally exaggerated forms of the mainstream. There is a common thread and that is misogyny.

I totally agree, what he says is nauseating. I like picking at some things, but most of it doesn't even warrant a response. Thank you for weighing in. Do you mean that it is becoming a hate site in the sense that it is getting filled with oppressive bullshit directed towards particular demographics, because people with such views are given a platform? I mean, not to put words in your mouth. I am just trying to understand in what way. I think it's not a safe space, at least I don't look at this place as one to safely express things without fear of running up against sexism, racism, etc. Especially as Stefan starts to attract the kind of crowd he does nowadays, and some percentage of them will flee.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2014, 04:16:41 AM by Lee Li »
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Elucidated

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Re: Values: What I Believe (As a Typical Feminist)
« Reply #112 on: July 10, 2014, 07:14:36 AM »
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Do you mean that it is becoming a hate site in the sense that it is getting filled with oppressive bullshit directed towards particular demographics, because people with such views are given a platform? I mean, not to put words in your mouth. I am just trying to understand in what way.

Yeah almost that, but not so much giving people with supremacist views a platform to express them, but to express them in such an offensive, hate-filled way.

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Re: Values: What I Believe (As a Typical Feminist)
« Reply #113 on: July 10, 2014, 10:41:13 AM »
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Do you mean that it is becoming a hate site in the sense that it is getting filled with oppressive bullshit directed towards particular demographics, because people with such views are given a platform? I mean, not to put words in your mouth. I am just trying to understand in what way.


Yeah almost that, but not so much giving people with supremacist views a platform to express them, but to express them in such an offensive, hate-filled way.


The passage you quoted from Omega was made before (and was one of the reasons why) I offered him the following warning in this thread: Re: But Feminists ARE Socialists with panties! :

Quote
...I'm trying to be as clear as I can now, so that if you remain unable to raise the quality of your arguments above unsupportable generalities laced with abusive vulgarity there will be no confusion as to why I've suspended your account, should I need to.


This is not and won't become a hate site. My challenge is in keeping it a free speech site but one of high quality. Believe me, it is a challenge.
It isn't about winning the debate. It's about the truth.

MikeTO

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Re: Values: What I Believe (As a Typical Feminist)
« Reply #114 on: July 13, 2014, 11:20:37 AM »
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The accusations AVFM made about receiving death threats from 'feminists' is full of holes. There is not enough evidence to conclude it. Some people even think it's a hoax.

Let me watch that video brb.


Official   letter AFVM  received  from double tree hotel.

http://www.avoiceformen.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2014/07/AVFM-Security-Letter.pdf

Elucidated

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Re: Values: What I Believe (As a Typical Feminist)
« Reply #115 on: July 16, 2014, 07:12:58 AM »
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Do you mean that it is becoming a hate site in the sense that it is getting filled with oppressive bullshit directed towards particular demographics, because people with such views are given a platform? I mean, not to put words in your mouth. I am just trying to understand in what way.


Yeah almost that, but not so much giving people with supremacist views a platform to express them, but to express them in such an offensive, hate-filled way.


The passage you quoted from Omega was made before (and was one of the reasons why) I offered him the following warning in this thread: Re: But Feminists ARE Socialists with panties! :

Quote
...I'm trying to be as clear as I can now, so that if you remain unable to raise the quality of your arguments above unsupportable generalities laced with abusive vulgarity there will be no confusion as to why I've suspended your account, should I need to.


This is not and won't become a hate site. My challenge is in keeping it a free speech site but one of high quality. Believe me, it is a challenge.

Thanks for the clarification on this, maybe just as well to have it stated in this thread too.
The challenge of your role is much appreciated.



phlogiston

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Re: Values: What I Believe (As a Typical Feminist)
« Reply #116 on: July 18, 2014, 04:36:16 AM »
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I think it's not a safe space, at least I don't look at this place as one to safely express things without fear of running up against sexism, racism, etc.

 If you mean express without being  censored or banned  while they are not the same meaning "=" you are right. If you mean your idea is right without questioning the opponents you are wrong. This is a place to let questions fly and not a place to assume anything. I can say elephants fly. I can't argue who are you to judge me about that belief. I can give proof why they can, or I can expect ppl to ignore my statement.
 I have lots of opinions. Some might matter. I hate chocolate doesn't. I think the environment matters might.