Author Topic: Values: What I Believe (As a Typical Feminist)  (Read 21454 times)

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Lee Li

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Values: What I Believe (As a Typical Feminist)
« on: June 25, 2014, 10:31:05 PM »
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What I Believe (As a Typical Feminist)

I know what you're thinking, 'ugh, another thread about feminism'. Well, yeah. But I didn't want to post this in the other threads because it doesn't seem to be related enough. Nevertheless, I think this needs to be said because otherwise people will continue constantly projecting things onto me. I hope this helps future discussions. This has some profanity in it, but I will remove it if asked.

I am hardly unusual in my beliefs (most of them at least). So here's a bucket list of my feminist values, in no particular order. I have other values, but those are not the topic of this thread. They are mostly in plain English, as follows:

1. Women are human beings and as such deserve to be given equal respect, value, status, and most importantly, treated as people first. Legally, economically, and socially.
2. Women have the right to manage their pregnancies as they see fit, including with abortion and contraception, without anyone else's say-so.
3. I don't care how naked she was, her nakedness doesn't mean she was "asking for it". Nor does drunkenness or other excuses people make on a routine basis.
4. Catcalling, wolfwhistling, leering, stalking, honking your horn at a stranger on the street, shouting at a stranger on the street (be it from a vehicle or on foot), uninvited touching, comments, flashing of genitals, public and/or concealed masturbation, are harassment sometimes leading up to sexual molestation, and as such are wrong and I do not believe they should ever be tolerated, as they fall under the category of sexual harassment.
5. No means no, unless you've agreed upon a safe word instead; then the safe word is the no. And the no must be respected, always.
6. Sex that was gotten through manipulation or authority is of questionable consent at best.
7. No one is entitled to sex.
8. No one is entitled to anyone else's body.
9. We shall be allowed to do with our own bodies as we please, within reasonable limits of consent when others are involved.
10. Rape is never ever ever okay under any circumstances whatsoever, not even during war.
11. I don't know what to call this value. If a woman tells a strange man sitting in front of her to take his hand out of his pants, it's not her fault she was observant of his inappropriate public behavior. It's also ridiculous for onlookers to shame her instead of him and make her regret being assertive by saying, "Well omg why were you looking!" Omg don't be ridiculous!
12. Gender roles are arbitrarily defined cultural standards that define people based on their genitalia, effectively confining them to little boxes and forcing the people to conform. Gender roles are harmful to everyone, f*ck the roles. If you like conforming to them, that is your freedom, but the roles must not be imposed on others as roles. Instead we must have individual choices.
13.1. Patriarchy is the system which reinforces those said gender roles. Patriarchy is harmful to men, women, trans, gay, everyone.
13.2. I am rather critical of the whole marriage thing. I get the idea that it's rather common, but I could be wrong of course.
14. Not everyone conforms to my generalizations and I respect that.
15. It is hard to appropriately extrapolate anecdotal phenomena without relying upon known reliable theories. I don't create overarching theories on the basis of anecdotal evidence. Most feminists rely on research and sociology as well as history for their theories, even when inspired by their own experiences.
16. Sexism, in all forms, must be destroyed.
17. Sexual freedom. No imposition of sexual preferences on others. If you want to dress modest, abstain from sex, or whatever, you are free to do so but not free to impose those things on other people.
18. The right of transgender and transsexual people to be recognized by their preferred pronouns must be honored.
19. When I say women, I mean all women, no matter what color you are or sex you were born with, or anything else.
20. Queer rights tie into feminism tangentially but also in a deep way, because LGBTA people suffer under the heteronormative patriarchy.
21. If you are a transman with a uterus, reproductive rights of 'women' apply to you -- you are not to be excluded just for identifying as a man. The term 'women' is only used for convenience and because it applies to the majority of situations.
22. Everyone follows equal rules of consent, irrespective of their gender, sexual orientation, clothing, religion, or number of partners; there are no double standards, our consent shall be honored!
23. As said before, men suffer under patriarchal gender norms, and I recognize this as a problem. I acknowledge and have sympathy for the problems men experience, but when talking from a feminist standpoint I analyze those issues by talking about how the patriarchal society caused them.
24. I think men need to stay conscious of their privilege and how it affects them in daily life and interactions. This means doing some reflection, and learning to be sensitive about it. This does not mean attacking oneself or acting inferior (two wrongs don't make a right).
25. Misogyny can occur and have undesirable effects even when a woman is not immediately present.
26. Like other feminists, I believe it's wrong to harass people even when I disagree with them. That means it's wrong to bully, make threats, blackmail, or publish personal information. I say that because it's what misogynists do on a routine basis.
27. The victim is not at fault for the actions taken by the perpetrator. The perpetrator is responsible for their own actions.
28. I am against people using misogynistic language and will call them on it.
29. Women do not need to be labeled based on their sexual behavior (e.g. 'slut', 'prude', 'frigid', 'ho'), their demeanor, appearance, or obedience (or lack thereof) ('bitch', 'fat', 'cow', 'horse', 'slave', 'doll') and it is very misogynistic and dehumanizing to do so. The list could go on, but I'll spare you the details.
30. It is insidiously misogynistic to ascribe feminine labels to men ('bitch', 'pussy', 'girly', 'c*nt').
31. The main way I deal with all these problems is I talk about them.
32. I celebrate sex while opposing compulsory sex.

Those are things that make me typical as a feminist. There are some things that make me rather atypical, basically due to my politics, and just particular opinions not shared by all feminists:

1. I don't support people going to war.
2. I don't support the State. Although I agree with other feminists that women should have the right to vote and all the other legal equality stuff, I abstain from elections because I'm a Lib Soc.
3. I think many of the ills in society are caused by or worsened by Capitalism.
4. I don't place importance or hope in legislative reforms, except as a rather unlikely short term solution under statism.
5. There's nothing wrong with looking at naked people, in principle. But I think that pornography, at least the way it is presented in the mainstream, is harmful to developing sexuality and contributes to a culture of misogyny, objectification of women's bodies as a collection of parts instead of a whole person, and a perception of sex that is rather eerily disconnected from the real thing. It also hurts the people involved in it professionally, from the injuries and illnesses they sustain on the job (some of them so grotesque, that even thinking about them gives me chills).
6. I believe that capitalism is a serious problem in pornography and prostitution, like any other job, and the market forces that affect the culture. But in a special kind of way, perhaps -- or maybe not, depending on how the porn actor or prostitute feels about it.
7. Some may or may not agree, that hip hop can be divorced from its misogynistic tendencies. I think feminist and other conscientious hip hop is excellent and a force for cultural change.
8. Some may or may not agree with me on my valuing free love, open relationships, etc.
9. I am disgusted by chivalry. I expect most people don't care, so that's going here. To me it is just patriarchal and condescending.
10. I generally use gender-neutral pronouns to describe people rather than specify gender, unless for a specific reason, or if I know that person prefers a particular pronoun. Other feminists may or may not follow this convention, it is just my personal choice. Especially useful when you don't know the gender, or the person doesn't want to be called by any gender.
11. I don't know how other feminists feel about it (because it depends), but I think a movement made to solve men's issues is a good thing, as long as it isn't anti-feministic.


If it's not on the list, I probably don't believe it. I will update this list if necessary, as I may have forgotten some items.

Edit: After messing up the numbers, I created 13.1 and 13.2 because it is too late to fix them, then changed the second 31 to 32.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2014, 11:20:45 AM by Lee Li »
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MikeTO

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Re: Values: What I Believe (As a Typical Feminist)
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2014, 10:57:22 PM »
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Misogyny is used way too much with feminists.   Also you have two #13 and #31.

It's no wonder men like me and other men just don't want to deal with it.  Women changing their minds  after sex is wrong.  If a woman gives consent she can't claim it's rape after it has happen when she gives no indication she wants to stop.

Also there are some women who had sex with minors and these young boys have to pay child support.  It boggles my mind a boy that have been sexually molested forced to pay child support.

Lee Li

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Re: Values: What I Believe (As a Typical Feminist)
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2014, 11:46:24 PM »
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oopsie.

Well, "Women changing their minds  after sex" is not "wrong". It's just regret.

Quote from: MikeTO
If a woman gives consent she can't claim it's rape
Correct.

And the issue is what?

Quote from: MikeTO
there are some women who had sex with minors and these young boys have to pay child support.  It boggles my mind a boy that have been sexually molested forced to pay child support.
Yes, that is wrong.

Quote from: MikeTO
Misogyny is used way too much with feminists.
  What?
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Omega

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Re: Values: What I Believe (As a Typical Feminist)
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2014, 07:50:02 AM »
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2 assuming that woman is allowed to manage her pregnancy how about same rights for men?
I think it is unfair if woman can terminate pregnancy and man cannot do that and thus he must pay child support.

4 How "concealed masturbation" is infringing your rights? I don't mind if you masturbate in front of me. and i guess most of men don't mind it.

5 "no means no" will hurt a lot of women who expect that no means maybe I am sure you also don't want it to be that if I come to you ad offer you something you say no and I just say "screw you bitch" and leave.

7 I think you just hate sex.

10  you cannot tell what to do to criminals and during war. you are not some god. war has no rules and no respect for anyone. Soldiers will kill and rape whomever they want and do not care about what you want. saying that it is not okay is nothing different than saying hurricanes are not ok. so you either do something YOURSELF to stop those war crimes or shut up. 

11. I thought you were advocating that "We shall be allowed to do with our own bodies as we please"  so keeping hand in my pants is exactly doing with my body whatever i want.

15 why do you make claim "most feminists"  without providing appropriate evidence to support it? while demanding evidence from others when such claims are made.

17 contradicts with number 11

19 you are making generalization again

21 why "uterus" provides additional rights ?  why man with "uterus" has more rights than man without it?

22 religion is double standard by definition so your claim is self contradictory

24 I wonder what are those privileges for men.  I did not noticed any. in contrast I would gladly change my sex to female just to get all those benefits and privileges females have.
Juts imagine nobody can hit me(because there is no reason to hit a woman)  and I can hit anyone I will will all fights. and If I had good looking body I could advance in my carrier like crazy and I could have sex and get paid for it too.

26 unfortunately other feminists believe that it is entirely ok to harass those who do not agree with them and do that all time.

27 you incorrectly understand term "guilty" when it is used on victim.
If I leave my expensive car on the street with keys, in the high crime area, I am guilty for leaving it there.
in same way if woman provokes rapist she is guilty for being raped.
victim is guilty for not properly avoiding crime while perpetrator is guilty for crime itself.
when you leave you house you are supposed to lock your door if you forget that you are guilty for being robbed.

29 why do you care what words are used for sexual behavior?
does it make difference if we replace word "slut" with word "candy" if meaning will remain same?
problem is you own interpretation of those words.
instead of being ashamed of being slut be proud of it and advertise that to everyone. just like gays and queers turned derogatory words into official definitions.
in fact I think word "slut" is not even derogatory at all, because we all like sluts, that is then best kind of woman man can meet.
while if you are frigid men need some word to describe you for other men to not bother and just ignore you as if you do not exist because you are frigid and thus useless.
don't you think it will save lots of time for everyone if you are well known to say "no" to often we should just not waste our effort, and choose decent slut who says "yes".
--------------------

5 as a woman you do not understand that for a man initially you are nothing more than sexual object men do not care about your personality or anything else besides how good is your body, and nothing will change that.
You can be angelic girl or nastiest bitch this has no impact on men's sexual desire for you.

9 this is because you hate men or else you would see chivalry as good way to flirt with them. If I offer you to carry your luggage you have good excuse to bring me to your bed and have fun. or just start talking and become friends. instead of hating it how about responding in same way back? how about being nice to those who are nice to you.
But I guess that you just want to hate men and thus you hate when they do something good to you and make you indebted to do something good back.


Argent

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Re: Values: What I Believe (As a Typical Feminist)
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2014, 09:11:32 AM »
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To recap...

"no means no" will hurt a lot of women who expect that no means maybe

Soldiers will kill and rape whomever they want... so you either do something YOURSELF to stop those war crimes or shut up.

24 I wonder what are those privileges for men.  I did not noticed any.

If I leave my expensive car on the street with keys, in the high crime area, I am guilty for leaving it there.
in same way if woman provokes rapist she is guilty for being raped.

we all like sluts, that is then best kind of woman man can meet.

while if you are frigid... you are frigid and thus useless.

as a woman you do not understand that for a man initially you are nothing more than sexual object men do not care about your personality or anything else besides how good is your body, and nothing will change that.

Omega

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Re: Values: What I Believe (As a Typical Feminist)
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2014, 10:41:06 AM »
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what is the purpose of that recap?

generally what I see in that post is just lots of demands of self entitlement and expectatiuons
that someone should implement all that.

however to tell the truth we are not required to treat them in any way. feminist woman is just empty space for a man, she simply does not exist as usable woman and not even worth interacting.

Lee Li

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Re: Values: What I Believe (As a Typical Feminist)
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2014, 11:14:06 AM »
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Lol he thinks I'm a woman.

Please, go on, Omega! Tell me more about your lack of respect for women.
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Lee Li

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Re: Values: What I Believe (As a Typical Feminist)
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2014, 11:47:20 AM »
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Lowkey - I Believe (Lyrics in description)
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Lee Li

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Re: Values: What I Believe (As a Typical Feminist)
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2014, 12:48:08 PM »
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This one goes out to all the players

Lowkey - Special
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Argent

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Re: Values: What I Believe (As a Typical Feminist)
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2014, 01:53:03 PM »
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what is the purpose of that recap?
To highlight the parts of your long post that stood out to me, so that other people who might read this thread wouldn't miss them. The way some people do with Stefan's videos.

Question for you: if, in your view, women are merely sexual objects to be used or ignored, what are men?

Omega

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Re: Values: What I Believe (As a Typical Feminist)
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2014, 02:47:52 PM »
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Question for you: if, in your view, women are merely sexual objects to be used or ignored, what are men?
If you ask what are men for me personally, they are competitors I must defeat.

Talking about sex objects if you want to be something besides object you must socialize at first.
ad most important I must be interested in socialization too.
while if we talk about sex I do not care who it is as long as it looks good.


Omega

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Re: Values: What I Believe (As a Typical Feminist)
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2014, 03:02:53 PM »
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Lol he thinks I'm a woman.

Please, go on, Omega! Tell me more about your lack of respect for women.

I do not lack respect for women, I lack respect for feminists who can only whine and cant do anything. those hypocrites who claim to be empowered and at same time demand to be protected from rapists war criminals and everything else.
My disrespect is not because I disagree with your ideas, but because you are worthless to implement them by yourself.  Feminists have no real power they are useless like cockroaches by themselves. 
I guess if some Nazis or religious fundamentalists came to rule they would beat all feminists into pulp without any resistance.
feminists are exactly the thing they despise themselves. weak powerless ans useless  who cant do anything without men.

How about dealing with rapist yourself if you are so powerful instead of asking men to help you?
But those "empowered" women cant even deal with pathetic losers who do not even use or have decent physical force.

MikeTO

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Re: Values: What I Believe (As a Typical Feminist)
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2014, 04:53:15 PM »
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It's radical feminists propaganda. If you buy into their crap then you have lost your balls forever. :P

Omega

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Re: Values: What I Believe (As a Typical Feminist)
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2014, 07:13:49 PM »
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It's radical feminists propaganda. If you buy into their crap then you have lost your balls forever. :P
Real feminism is dead and obsolete, what we have now is just bunch of ugly worthless girls who demand state to be their husband provider and protector.

Lee Li

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Re: Values: What I Believe (As a Typical Feminist)
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2014, 07:38:10 PM »
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Lol
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