There are no "really good" parents

[Silo Bill]

Good point Argent.

The fact that he used to plaster the chatroom window with photos of her during Sunday shows realllly creeped me out.

Yes, it creeped me out too...

I think Stef is going to have a hard time explaining all this one day and he put those photo's up without asking permission. How dare he?

[Argent]

Good point Argent.

The fact that he used to plaster the chatroom window with photos of her during Sunday shows realllly creeped me out.

Yes, it creeped me out too...

I think Stef is going to have a hard time explaining all this one day and he put those photo's up without asking permission. How dare he?

But see, thanks to Stefan's bulletproof parenting philosophy, Isabella is guaranteed to grow up fantastically happy, with no reason to reproach Stefan. She will regard his decision to use her for his own financial benefit just as she will his decision, that day at the zoo, to buy her chocolate ice-cream when perhaps she would have preferred rocky road. One of those things parents have to guess on and experiment with because their children don't have fully-formed preferences yet. For all he knows, she'll be glad for the exposure. Early boost towards stardom should she want that.

[Silo Bill]

But what about.............

Quote from: Stef
I do stand by my statement that there are no “really good” parents — I think that until a rational proof of objective ethics is more widely disseminated, parents have little choice but to substitute will and punishment for genuine and reasonable moral authority.



You know I would like to be around when Stef gets one of those awkward questions asked of him...
Daddy was does UPB mean?
I'm busy, ask your Mother.......!

[Conrad]

But what about.............

Quote from: Stef
I do stand by my statement that there are no “really good” parents — I think that until a rational proof of objective ethics is more widely disseminated, parents have little choice but to substitute will and punishment for genuine and reasonable moral authority.

so if UPB is false, he cannot be a really good parent. Sure, that sounds like a healthy stance with which to approach both philosophical discussion and parenting.

I mean, it implies that anybody who asks him a critical question about UPB is basically telling him he is not a really good parent

[Argent]

But what about.............

Quote from: Stef
I do stand by my statement that there are no “really good” parents — I think that until a rational proof of objective ethics is more widely disseminated, parents have little choice but to substitute will and punishment for genuine and reasonable moral authority.

so if UPB is false, he cannot be a really good parent. Sure, that sounds like a healthy stance with which to approach both philosophical discussion and parenting.

I mean, it implies that anybody who asks him a critical question about UPB is basically telling him he is not a really good parent

Great point. It dovetails with something I was exploring the other day:

Great post, Traveler! Glad to have you.   Your post got me thinking about FDR's tagline, "The Logic of Personal and Political Liberty."

Stefan tries to wear many hats. At times he fancies himself a logician, a philosopher, a political commentator, a journalist, a psychologist. The thing is, real professionals in these fields strive to be impartial. They do their best to keep their person lives out of their work. They may include a personal anecdote or two when they write it up in an article or book, but that is just fluff to keep the reader interested. The core of their work exists completely separately from them.

In contrast, Stefan tries his best to continually bring his personal life--and those of his listeners--into his work. This is what he calls "integrity." This degree of reliance on one's personal life for one's bread and butter is usually reserved for celebrities (and quacks, and cult leaders...). People whose contribution to the world, it is understood, is not one of substance but of entertainment value.

The great thing about trying to be impartial in your work is that when it gets critiqued, you don't have to take it personally. I think for Stefan, because his work and personal lives are so intertwined, it is very difficult for him not to take critiques personally. It's sometimes even difficult for critics to avoid commenting on his personal life, because it permeates every aspect of FDR.

What we end up with is a situation where any critique of FDR can be construed as a personal attack on Stefan. He deals with it by saying "It's not about me, it's about them," and goes on to psychologize the critic rather than acknowledging the substance of their argument. While this may be an appropriate response to an actual personal attack, it is not an appropriate response to critiques of professional work.

If Stefan wants to be taken seriously, he must provide a way for people to independently evaluate his work, and state their findings without being seen as haters. This is what his beloved scientific method does for science. If he's not willing to do that, he has ventured into not even wrong territory.

[HansKarlsson]

Stefan studiously fails to identify the violence he is inflicting on his child.
- He refused to even countenance arguments that there are negative aspects to vaccination and even if it is accepted to be a desirable act...
- children need to socialise with their peers, often impossible in increasingly isolated nuclear family stettings, and daycare centres can be run very well indeed, so many parents opt for that solution to help their kids establish independence and develop socialisation and learning skills that are unavaible in the home, reluctantly relinquishing a small amount of greatly valued time with their child...
- he condemns his daughter to crawling around on the carpet with a grown man in the attempt to earn candies given as rewards for UPB compliant behaviors...
- He also used sleep training...
- advocates timeouts and the withholding of affection (which he reframes as "treats")
- he actually revels in humiliating his daughter by forcing her to make her gums bleed, refusing to allow her to watch TV or sending her early to bed with no story and refusing to allow her to eat her favourite foods...

Molyneux doesn't bring all those up or just minimizes them... like "I did it only once". Giving his total lack of expertise about different styles of parenting, my take is that the only parenting book he read before becoming parent is Parent Effectiveness Training. Many of his parenting "theories" are actually from that book. Of course he needs to rebrand it under his new philosophical parenting.

I don't know if it sounds awkward in English, but he did refer to his daughter as "my project". I also remember him saying in a Sunday Show when she was 2 years old that "I told her..." just to shortly correct himself by saying "I discussed with her...". Of course he was discussing with a two years old

[Hajnal]

Molyneux doesn't bring all those up or just minimizes them... like "I did it only once".

Did he say that? Did he say that! My word. And for all the deFOO'd parents who, say, slapped their child "only once"...

[HansKarlsson]

Molyneux doesn't bring all those up or just minimizes them... like "I did it only once".

Did he say that? Did he say that! My word. And for all the deFOO'd parents who, say, slapped their child "only once"...

For example he brings it constantly when he talks about timeouts, "I did it only once or twice". But hey, nobody's perfect, I guess small slips are perfectly justifiable when parenting. Or maybe not.

I also don't understand how he had the heart to pull Cry It Out on his daughter (let her cry for hours). The research is pretty clear that this can cause brain damage/early trauma. Maybe he should add it to his Bomb in the Brain series. Or maybe not.

[Hajnal]

I also don't understand how he had the heart to pull Cry It Out on his daughter (let her cry for hours). The research is pretty clear that this can cause brain damage/early trauma. Maybe he should add it to his Bomb in the Brain series. Or maybe not.

Omg! I know, right! Dude, I felt shocked about that. But I was just like: well, maybe he knows more about this than I do... I was very distracted with personal matters anyway.

[Silo Bill]

I also don't understand how he had the heart to pull Cry It Out on his daughter (let her cry for hours). The research is pretty clear that this can cause brain damage/early trauma. Maybe he should add it to his Bomb in the Brain series. Or maybe not.

I think this is quite a heartless act. If a baby is crying then it is for a reason, even if that reason is simply for company.
So what do you do when the child is older and can speak out louder,express itself more profoundly? gonna' ignore s/he then?

[HansKarlsson]

Dude, I felt shocked about that. But I was just like: well, maybe he knows more about this than I do... I was very distracted with personal matters anyway.

Wait, I know this one. He let his child cry so he can get sleep. He needs good sleep to be able to save the world. He saves the world by saving the childre. Ups, it's not it.

I think this is quite a heartless act. If a baby is crying then it is for a reason, even if that reason is simply for company.
So what do you do when the child is older and can speak out louder,express itself more profoundly? gonna' ignore s/he then?

Heartless indeed. I couldn't do it with mine, even if I read about it in two different books. When I researched about what else to do, I found what the dangers of CIO are.
The "The No-Cry Sleep Solution" by Elizabeth Pantley gets into a few methods one can use to put the baby to sleep without letting the baby cry.

[Elucidated]

I also don't understand how he had the heart to pull Cry It Out on his daughter (let her cry for hours). The research is pretty clear that this can cause brain damage/early trauma. Maybe he should add it to his Bomb in the Brain series. Or maybe not.

I think this is quite a heartless act. If a baby is crying then it is for a reason, even if that reason is simply for company.
So what do you do when the child is older and can speak out louder,express itself more profoundly? gonna' ignore s/he then?

For the answer to this have a listen to: Philosophical Parenting - Part One - 29 January 2010, from around15:10:00

Having said that "Isabella is an experiment in parenting" and that "children are equivalent to moral prisoners in the home", Stefan tells us that he is writing a book on parenting (Isabella is 13 months old at the time of this podcast)

As Stefan imparts his knowledge upon the listener, we can hear Izzy in the background crying for attention and so he stops momentarily and says ‘in a minute boo boo’ then speeds up his illuminating advice and knowledge sharing. He carries on quite a long time. We hear Izzy crying out again a few minutes later, then again after around another 8 minute and now he tells her ‘nearly done’

The podcast goes on for about another 25 minutes! after this - the irony completely lost on him.

‘What is discipline? For me it comes down to keeping my daughter safe’ he continues then gives his life jacket analogy ‘if you believe in private property and someone is drowning do you take someone else’s life jacket to save a drowning person? Yes you can because you can assume that person would have given permission after the fact’

This he relates to Izzy getting a vaccination (permission after the fact) example of course she would say she was happy to have vaccinations – which, of course, is not necessarily true.

I wonder if he would get permission after the fact from Izzy to leave her bored and crying for attention while he talks incessantly into a microphone? He describes himself as 'full time stay at home dad' all the while ignoring her - again how can the irony not escape him!  ‘if my child could articulate now what would she choose?’  he says at one point. She is articulating right now Stefan, and she is asking for attention!

It could be funny - but really it just isn't

[Anarchist]

Having said that "Isabella is an experiment in parenting"

Haha. Experiments. At Freedomain Radio. Hahahaha.

What he means is that he'd be discredited if she ends up with anything that's the supposed result of child abuse. Except that he wouldn't, since he and his followers would spin it or forget the past speeches, as they've done many times. Stef would just become more of a "I just want to push extreme child abuse into the past and promote libertarianism" guy.

He doesn't mean something that scientists would look at and accept as any kind of research. For that, the standards are much higher these days.

And forget about her outcomes mattering much as far as people leaving. As pointed out in this thread, Stefan's mistreatment of her is part of what began to turn me away from the man.

[Hajnal]

I found what the dangers of CIO are.

So let me do a Google search and see.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/moral-landscapes/201112/dangers-crying-it-out?page=2

Psychology Today can have some pretty sub-standard stuff, I don't take it seriously. But look at the references, at least there are some this time.

http://www.phdinparenting.com/2008/07/05/no-cry-it-out/

This one has a handful of references too, very good. But the one reference that stood out to me is this:

http://www.nospank.net/fleiss2.htm

OMG. Nospank.net! This is the Alice Miller site we passed around for the longest time!

Not that this says anything about its scientific value... Obviously, the page just looks like a bunch of prose.

From the article: "Also, as I discussed in my follow-up post Cry it Out (CIO): Is it harmful or helpful? and Another Academic Weighs in on CIO there is no evidence that cry it out is safe, despite what its supporters will tell you."

I think this makes sense, if you think about it: which side holds the burden of proof? What are the potential costs and benefits? It seems potentially more dangerous to go with the CIO method. (Parents' discomfort vs. child's extreme stress.) Just a cursory observation.

[Anarchist]

As far as the 'sleep training', he made some long speech about how bad sleep habits can make your life worse. Since everything in life is apparently learned soon after encountering it, if he didn't fix her sleep habits quickly, horrors would ensue!