Is Stefan Molyneux’s Freedomain Radio responsible for a suicide?

[imercury]

Geez need to add this to get though the spam filter 

What Stefan offers is a one size fits all solution, if it works for some that's great, but it can't possibly work for everyone.

I've suffered from mental illness for decades no one has a answer.  Which is the reason I've posted to hopefully gain insight to give me a better life. You can't put your faith in a single solution for this very reason that people are different and the abuse they suffered is varied as well.

[Silo Bill]

Geez need to add this to get though the spam filter 

What Stefan offers is a one size fits all solution, if it works for some that's great, but it can't possibly work for everyone.

I've suffered from mental illness for decades no one has a answer.  Which is the reason I've posted to hopefully gain insight to give me a better life.

Hi imecruy and welcome.
With the greatest of respect to yourself might I suggest that if no one has an answer to your problem would it be frugal to stop looking for one?. Move on and seek that better life that you deserve and clealry want. 

[Elucidated]

Geez need to add this to get though the spam filter 

What Stefan offers is a one size fits all solution, if it works for some that's great, but it can't possibly work for everyone.

I've suffered from mental illness for decades no one has a answer.  Which is the reason I've posted to hopefully gain insight to give me a better life.

Hi imecruy and welcome.
With the greatest of respect to yourself might I suggest that if no one has an answer to your problem would it be frugal to stop looking for one?. Move on and seek that better life that you deserve and clealry want. 

Silo Bill, I took imercury's post to mean looking for a solution rather than for a reason. Maybe I'm wrong?

If that's the case don't ever stop looking imercury - but if you read some of the posts on here you'll see that for some people, moving away from FDR was a first step for them.

I wish you the best with your journey, and hope you can find comfort from fellow travellers here on the forum.

[Hajnal]

Mental illness and suffering can affect people's lives drastically. Depending on what it is, maybe the person cannot ignore it. If you're straining to find an answer, you may have to try many different sources before you understand what is going on. It's a personal choice, but I wouldn't give up, and I would keep trying different things until something works. Just don't stick to one answer - keep trying. I guess we're still living in a world where mental illness is only beginning be shown some kind of mercy. For example, it was only a few years ago, that depression was taken seriously, IIRC... So it's sad, but many people still suffer in silence.

[imercury]

Hiya, imercury!  Thanks for joining!

 
I was looking for a wiki to provide as a reference to a facebook post I was making referring to UPB and came across your site in the results so I had to come check it out.

My article is only asking the question. It doesn't claim Molyneux and his wife are responsible--it only asks hard questions for those who automatically assume they aren't.

Interesting you implicate his wife as well. In addition to his wife I suspect someone else other than the FDR community is sponsoring them with nefarious intent ? This interests me indeed as well as your motivations for taking time to build this site. I want reality not truth for my own prosperity, and perhaps a little notoriety to feed my narcissistic tendencies. 

Suicide is the end of a long time of crying out for help. Most people try to get help from family  and friends first, a lifetime pursuit for some before the feelings of helplessness sap the will to live.

You probably didn't intend it this way, but it sounds like there are some very Molyneuvian implications in that sentence--i.e., someone spends a lifetime crying out within (or because of the abuse of) his/her indifferent family until he/she reaches the breaking point and ends it all.

I'm making a personal reference but my symptoms are very common and the source child hood abuse seems rather plausible as I've heard from one therapist I've seen.

 

Many people who commit suicide don't even tell their therapists they are planning to do so.

I'd like to talk about it with my therapist but the VA forbids me from making a video record of my sessions and without that record I'm not going to do it.

The number 1 cause of suicide is undiagnosed mental illness, followed by drug addiction. According to one medical Web site:

"Although the reasons why people commit suicide are multifaceted and complex, life circumstances that may immediately precede someone committing suicide include the time period of at least a week after discharge from a psychiatric hospital or a sudden change in how the person appears to feel (for example, much worse or much better). Examples of possible triggers (precipitants) for suicide are real or imagined losses, like the breakup of a romantic relationship, moving, loss (especially if by suicide) of a friend, loss of freedom, or loss of other privileges."

I've had 3 loved ones commit suicide.
All of them were diagnosed and under treatment of a doctor who prescribed psychotropic drugs.
2 of them took these medications 1 shot himself
All of them had a family trauma that involved their children.
They all shared a perception that they could not ( child's death), or would not  ( forced by a court), be able associate with their kids left them without the will to live.
Their children were their only reason for living when this was removed from their life. Life was not worth living.

I don't hold any moral judgement on them for committing the act, or look for anyone to be responsible because I'm part of the blame. Life is their choice. I don't think suicide has much moral virtue in this discussion IMO. But I do suffer from suicidal ideation and that's the reason I sought help years ago, and this discussion has potential for personal value now to get to the solution that has been elusive to me.

In today's economy what Stefan offers is priceless and offers many techniques to deal with a life of abuse and neglect.

There is no evidence beyond Mr. Molyneux's claims that his "techniques" have any value at all. Even his own members have fully exposed the logical flaws in his books such as "Real Time Relationships--The Logic of Love."

There are many books I've read and none have fixed the problem. I look at all authors with a skeptical expectation because of the lack of results in any techniques to produce results in my life. Stefan seems to have a family life I'd like to have for my children. I must say his efforts have influenced me to definitely continue with my policy to not spank my children as punishment. 

I'm given to understand that most of the time, Molyneux's followers instinctively hold back from fully mentioning the FDR community to their therapists. Why?

This is common human behavior. My wife felt the same way when I took some Scientology courses.  If I could have explained away those trips to Saint Louis. I would have lied too. I bent to her will and stopped going suffered for it for years more before I finally divorced her. I got better now at least there is no one prohibiting me from trying something new that might make my life better.

I challenge anyone going into FDR-inspired therapy to take the following with them to the therapist. Start the session with this:  The one thing you’ll never hear in a therapist’s office. You may argue with the tone of what I've written but it is entirely factually correct.

I'll have to examine this.

If I were to take him up on this recommendation. Then the psychiatrist prescribes a anti depressant that allows me to act on my suicidal ideation who's fault is it that I commit suicide ?

There's a premise hidden in this question that I always pounce on these days. It is an implicit suggestion that Molyneux's claims and a psychiatrist's prescription have equal merit. They do not. There is no way to compare that to the suicide of a patient under a psychiatrist's care. Even if the psychiatrist in question is inept, he/she is relying on clinical research. That seems to carry a bit more weight with me than the persuasive rhetoric one learns as a member of the York University debate team.

I was hoping you would say it's my choice regardless of the care giver or advice provider. In my experience as I've said  being under care and on anti depressants seems to be correlated.  I avoid both and put everything under a lot of consideration before doing anything hasty which has kept me alive but still suffering.

I invite you to hear what I'm talking about it's so much easier to say than type. please like and share to bring others into the discussion or post a video response.

http://youtu.be/MVCl07_mF1g

[imercury]

I'm not even sure how you can equate Stefan's teachings with being responsible. Suicide is the end of a long time of crying out for help. Most people try to get help from family and friends first, a lifetime pursuit for some before the feelings of helplessness sap the will to live.

How do you know that (a question that Stefan advertises as a good one)? Do you have anecdotes (which can merely show that your claim might apply to some number of people, but not necessarily any sizeable proportion of people) or do you also have statistics (which are required to back a claim about a proportion like your claim about "most" people who are suicidal)? I really doubt that you base your claim on any statistical evidence, so I'd welcome your evidence to the contrary.

statistically 100% of my friends were on docs dope when they died. Which places any other data in serious question as I've never heard of a statistic that supports how well the doctors and dope do. Considering how many people are on meds today under the care of a doctor. Why is suicide on the rise in the military ? or the rest of society.  It's not because of Stefan or UPB. the source is obscure, everyone would like to state in simple terms that don't apply to anyone. or fail to see correlations that are very common yet no one talks about.


I don't care much about statistics they are often dependent on other factors to hold true or I'd be dead from smoking already. I would be willing to admit Stefan has helped me along with dozens of other writers who are not even associated with the mental health field. It just seems to me the more talking that is done on the subject the more it becomes acceptable to talk about and family mental health issues are a traditional taboo subject that needs to see more light of day.

[imercury]

Hi imecruy and welcome.
With the greatest of respect to yourself might I suggest that if no one has an answer to your problem would it be frugal to stop looking for one?. Move on and seek that better life that you deserve and clealry want. 

Through the years I've found help in unexpected places. I can't stop looking for happiness. It's not just a decision to be made once and carry on. If it were that simple I wouldn't be here.

[imercury]

Silo Bill, I took imercury's post to mean looking for a solution rather than for a reason. Maybe I'm wrong?

If that's the case don't ever stop looking imercury - but if you read some of the posts on here you'll see that for some people, moving away from FDR was a first step for them.

I wish you the best with your journey, and hope you can find comfort from fellow travellers here on the forum.

I'm not at all a FDR community member just been watching from the sideline for about 9 months or so. Yes, I would like to hear about others experiences so I can apply that wisdom to my situation.

[Hajnal]

I was hoping you would say it's my choice regardless of the care giver or advice provider. In my experience as I've said  being under care and on anti depressants seems to be correlated.  I avoid both and put everything under a lot of consideration before doing anything hasty which has kept me alive but still suffering.

statistically 100% of my friends were on docs dope when they died. Which places any other data in serious question as I've never heard of a statistic that supports how well the doctors and dope do. Considering how many people are on meds today under the care of a doctor. Why is suicide on the rise in the military ? or the rest of society.

There's one thing here, I just want to point it out. Personal observations / anecdotes aren't very reliable for understanding phenomena. There are a number of reasons that things happen the way they do. I respect your educated guess, but before we can make a generalization about whether, say, antidepressants cause suicidality, it is better practice to refer to studies (with a large amount of participants, or a large "sample") that have been carried out. The methodology for establishing correlation in formal studies is more reliable than personal observation because it seeks to reproduce the phenomenon.

Understanding statistics is very helpful because it frees you from the authority of other human beings, as well as your own cognitive biases. Studies and statistics can be done incorrectly, but by understanding how they work you'll be able to sort out the good from the bad. When done right, they shed light on reality.

-- However I would also like to add that statistics cannot give you hard and fast rules -- it's basically a math that tries to make generalizations. Studies will detect trends, not absolute things. There's always a small probability that there will be exceptions. But I'd count on the generalizations of science before I ever trust the generalizations of men who make wild guesses Cause and effect is not that easy to establish.

[imercury]

Mental illness and suffering can affect people's lives drastically. Depending on what it is, maybe the person cannot ignore it. If you're straining to find an answer, you may have to try many different sources before you understand what is going on. It's a personal choice, but I wouldn't give up, and I would keep trying different things until something works. Just don't stick to one answer - keep trying. I guess we're still living in a world where mental illness is only beginning be shown some kind of mercy. For example, it was only a few years ago, that depression was taken seriously, IIRC... So it's sad, but many people still suffer in silence.

Indeed I'm sick of keeping my feelings hidden or being afraid to talk about them to anyone. The people that are most able to help are usually the people that refuse to talk about the matter.

[imercury]

There's one thing here, I just want to point it out. Personal observations / anecdotes aren't very reliable for understanding phenomena.

Understanding statistics is very helpful because it frees you from the authority of other human beings, as well as your own cognitive biases. Studies and statistics can be done incorrectly, but by understanding how they work you'll be able to sort out the good from the bad. When done right, they shed light on reality.

Very broad very general information can be obtained from a study especially when the study is done to come to a conclusion that the study dose not support. The drug industry is famous for this and lawsuits are proof that many of their products are not tested enough to determine the effects, they just count the deaths and awards as a cost of doing business. The FDA, Doctors and the drug industry keep touting success as more people are on these drugs and committing suicide as per label warning. Yet no one talks about it much. I refuse to take anything that might enhance suicidal ideation because I've already got it thanks.

The Marketing of Madness: The Truth About Psychotropic Drugs

-- However I would also like to add that statistics cannot give you hard and fast rules -- it's basically a math that tries to make generalizations. Studies will detect trends, not absolute things. There's always a small probability that there will be exceptions. But I'd count on the generalizations of science before I ever trust the generalizations of men who make wild guesses Cause and effect is not that easy to establish.

 I consider the data but often anecdotes of people you know and what is going on around you are better indicators than some contrived study that says it's safe or dangerous for political, economic motivations. The studies might be a lot better if someone like your or I asked a question we decide ,the data would be more honest if we don't have a conflict of intrest. But when others do it you have to ask all the news questions who what where when why how before even considering any statistical data for decision making.

[Hajnal]

-- However I would also like to add that statistics cannot give you hard and fast rules -- it's basically a math that tries to make generalizations. Studies will detect trends, not absolute things. There's always a small probability that there will be exceptions. But I'd count on the generalizations of science before I ever trust the generalizations of men who make wild guesses Cause and effect is not that easy to establish.

 I consider the data but often anecdotes of people you know and what is going on around you are better indicators than some contrived study that says it's safe or dangerous for political, economic motivations. The studies might be a lot better if someone like your or I asked a question we decide ,the data would be more honest if we don't have a conflict of intrest. But when others do it you have to ask all the news questions who what where when why how before even considering any statistical data for decision making.

It is often the anecdotes which drive me to question if there is some particular phenomenon going on. I can't make reliable inferences by guessing, but that is where a study comes in, to examine causes or correlations and why something happens.

Some studies are incompetent, completely misinterpreted, or even fraudulent. That is why critical thinking is also incredibly important for questioning and weeding out the bad studies, conflicts of interest, and conclusions of those who interpret said studies. (So you don't replace "studies" with the authority they were meant to displace.) I don't even trust articles most of the time: I skip the article and go straight to the study itself. Which I then critically and skeptically examine.

I feel it is better to cut out the "middle man" this way. Oftentimes, people will use studies as leverage to make claims (looking at you, Molyneux, for those ACE studies!), and they are smart to do so because studies tend to have leverage. But people will also try to use your emotions as leverage, as is the case with sensationalistic articles.

It is being able to become a skeptic, questioning everything and filtering out the bullshit, that will leave you out of reach of negligent and exploitative people. At least, that is how I feel - I take an interest in the methodology of scientific studies and its relation to epistemology (What is true?) precisely because I want to take control of my own well being, and I'm tired of being lied to and exploited and neglected by people who supposedly know better. In the end, I only have my own mind -- so to find a way to debunk things and establish correlation, I have found to be quite empowering.

Very broad very general information can be obtained from a study especially when the study is done to come to a conclusion that the study dose not support. The drug industry is famous for this and lawsuits are proof that many of their products are not tested enough to determine the effects, they just count the deaths and awards as a cost of doing business. The FDA, Doctors and the drug industry keep touting success as more people are on these drugs and committing suicide as per label warning. Yet no one talks about it much. I refuse to take anything that might enhance suicidal ideation because I've already got it thanks.

I would not at all be surprised if there was some selfish, psychopathic negligence going on in our pharmaceutical industry. There are loads of horror stories out there in many other forms...

I don't have knowledge about the drugs themselves, only the methodology. I neither encourage nor discourage you from taking said drugs, about which I have no expertise to speak.

From the bottom of my heart, I hope you find the care that works for you. There are, indeed, alternative treatments to drugs insofar as I am aware.

[0bject1ve]

Some studies are incompetent, completely misinterpreted, or even fraudulent. That is why critical thinking is also incredibly important for questioning and weeding out the bad studies, conflicts of interest, and conclusions of those who interpret said studies. (So you don't replace "studies" with the authority they were meant to displace.) I don't even trust articles most of the time: I skip the article and go straight to the study itself. Which I then critically and skeptically examine.

I feel it is better to cut out the "middle man" this way. Oftentimes, people will use studies as leverage to make claims (looking at you, Molyneux, for those ACE studies!), and they are smart to do so because studies tend to have leverage. But people will also try to use your emotions as leverage, as is the case with sensationalistic articles.

Very well said!

[Silo Bill]

Hi imecruy and welcome.
With the greatest of respect to yourself might I suggest that if no one has an answer to your problem would it be frugal to stop looking for one?. Move on and seek that better life that you deserve and clealry want. 

Through the years I've found help in unexpected places. I can't stop looking for happiness. It's not just a decision to be made once and carry on. If it were that simple I wouldn't be here.

Quite so, help or solutions may come from the most obscure places and sometimes when one least expects it.
Hence my comment, perhaps I should have declared that your solution may come to you by chance in time?
Maybe you could ask yourself 'what is the solution I am looking for'?
Hope I am making sense, either way I wish you well.

Regards
Silo Bill

[Hajnal]

First, I am not a professional and am not even formally educated. I am just some nobody interested in science. Don't take me on my word.

On the subject of depression, antidepressants, and suicidality, I just heard a huge lecture on the possible biological causes of depression. It's very technical, but packed with information.

Interestingly, he hypothesizes that our brains might be wired by early childhood trauma in such a way that our genes get modified irreversibly, and even mentions the ACE study. Note that he does not state anything about trauma by parenting, just trauma in general. Now, I have heard equally compelling criticisms -- such as this one, which points out how ambiguous the distinction between genetic and environmental factors can really be. So, take that with a grain of salt. It could be the environment, it could be genetics, it could be epigenetics -- I guess we really don't know yet.

Personally, I think, based on what I read from Jonathan Haidt, social support is very helpful in making people happy, and (I don't remember where, but) have often heard that exercise supposedly helps with mental health -- perhaps both could be protective against things like depression, suicide, and even things like heart disease. The speaker did mention that exercise + antidepressants have been shown to offer the patient even better relief. The bad news is he also mentioned at the end of the lecture that depression has a high chance of recurring even after treatment - that is to say, e.g. if you take antidepressants for a year and then stop. This doesn't mean you should avoid antidepressants, but I guess there's a chance you may occasionally have to get treated again.

For what it's worth, WebMD basically recommends antidepressants, cognitive behavioral techniques, light therapy (for S.A.D.), exercise, socializing, sleep, relaxation, a healthy diet, and also working closely with your doctor/psychiatrist to monitor your response to medication.

Do antidepressants make people suicidal? What was the point of the FDA's black box warning anyway? Well... Some food for thought:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/in-practice/200902/antidepressants-and-suicide-who-scientists-weigh-in
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/child-and-adolescent-mental-health/antidepressant-medications-for-children-and-adolescents-information-for-parents-and-caregivers.shtml
http://www.nhs.uk/news/2009/08August/Pages/Antidepressantsandsuiciderisk.aspx

Whether or not it is the case, hopefully we'll see new drugs for depression that will have even fewer side effects and more reliable results. I myself am not totally convinced about the serotonin hypothesis. If it makes anyone feel better, the SSRIs used today have even fewer side effects than the antidepressants that were originally used. I feel hopeful that there are people out there who really do want to see less suffering in the world.

There is even a new treatment for depression being tested with the currently illegal drug, Ketamine. Perhaps like we've seen with marijuana for PTSD, we may see Ketamine prescribed for depression. There must be some reason people are attracted to these drugs, right? Self-medication? I dunno. But this is all up in the air, and I don't recommend anyone go trying that.

This stuff about antidepressants and depression may not be relevant to everyone struggling with suicidal impulses, because people with depression are not the only ones who can feel suicidal. There are many risks for suicidal ideation.


And here is the full lecture:

The Biology of Depression: The Affects of Stress

I don't know if this should be moved to a new thread. xD